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Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

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Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#71

Post by [deleted] »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #68
ebiester wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, why the hell would anyone leave that much money on the table? If you're asking me to do something crazy, you better be willing to pay for it. .5% equity, especially when it will end up being diluted, is a fool's game.

> So, why the hell would anyone leave that much money on the table? If you're asking me to do something crazy, you better be willing to pay for it. At most early-stage startups, there is no money on the table. If you want to maximize your earnings, focusing your job search on pre-Series A startups is a horrible waste of time. The OP seems to be asking for startup excitement, reasonable hours, high salary and meaningf…

[deleted]

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#73

Post by [deleted] »

djb_hackernews wrote: post #67
im_asl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1's working for lower pay seems like a fallacy. Part of the visa process involves paying prevailing wages.

Yes by law there is a prevailing wage rule, however in practice this is abused. 1) It is basically never enforced 2) The people rubber stamping the applications don't have a clue about the person, the job, or the title What happens is employers pigeon hole developers into less experienced roles with lower pay grades according to the BLS (the source of data employers must use to justify the wage) For instance you can…

[deleted]

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#74

Post by percept »

patio11 wrote: post #57

Joel Spolsky had a really interesting insight [+] once about hiring pools: they're disproportionately filled with people who you don't want working for you, because if you're hireable, you exit the hiring pool fairly quickly, and the dynamics of this system quickly mean that the pool is filled full of people who aren't even FizzBuzz qualified. I think the other side of the market is isomorphic to this: any publicly a…

Framework fetish foils FizzBuzz facility.

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#75

Post by brosky117 »

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #49
beat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the same founders who are on Quora, asking why their programmers won't work 80 hour weeks.

Can you link me to some of these so I can laugh?

http://www.quora.com/How-do-you-make-programmers-work-60-80-...

http://www.quora.com/How-can-you-inspire-programmers-to-work...

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#76

Post by lsc »

>I noticed some rather unsettling job adverts in the past while. Some pre series-A startups in the valley offering like $90k in salary for an experienced developer and 0.05% equity. I am just trying to understand who are their target candidates that they expect to join for such an offer (not to mention crazy working hours)?

I had a similar experience recently. all the "startups" expected me to take a 30-40% paycut vs. the larger places, essentially because they expected me to be excited about their company.

Which is weird, because if the startup doesn't get really big, even if it does okay, nobody is going to care it's on my resume. But the large companies? especially the large companies with a reputation for high standards? they look good on the resume.

Another funny bit is that the same thing, as far as I can tell, is true of contract positions.

What irritated me is that I was going through headhunters... e.g. they were already paying 30% extra for the headhunter - if they just gave me that, I'd have been happy, at least for the first year.

The other thing was that they were weird about money. I talked to one startup and (after an 8 hour interview) they seemed super excited. the person who would be my supervisor gave me his email, and man, I thought I was in. "how much are you looking for?" I named a high number, about 10% higher than I expect to actually get, because that's what I always do. Let them talk me down. I even mentioned my bottom number "a guy who has been working for me for most of his career just landed a job at $x" - but nope, the mood immediately changed; I was hustled out the door and the company went completely dark. no response to the official or the personal emails. I finally got some bullshit answer from the recruiter, where he read back the "why you shouldn't hire me" things I give companies before any interview.

The solution? I ended up getting a contract gig at the large advertising company in mountain view. I'm pretty happy with how things worked out; It's closer to where I live in the south bay, it looks way more impressive on the resume, and I need three people to sign paper before I do overtime.

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#77

Post by nickstinemates »

ebiester wrote: post #46
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #27

What are you expecting from pre-Series A startups? There are lots of pre-Series A startups with six figures in funding and little to no revenue. For obvious reasons, most of them are not going to be paying $140,000/year and if they are, you might not be comfortable with the runway risk. In terms of equity, since you mentioned that you are the breadwinner for your family, why are you sweating the equity? A lot of folk…

So, why the hell would anyone leave that much money on the table? If you're asking me to do something crazy, you better be willing to pay for it. .5% equity, especially when it will end up being diluted, is a fool's game.

Even worse, it's 0.05%.

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#78

Post by thebiglebrewski »

brosky117 wrote: post #75
thebiglebrewski wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link me to some of these so I can laugh?

http://www.quora.com/How-do-you-make-programmers-work-60-80-... http://www.quora.com/How-can-you-inspire-programmers-to-work...

Ahahah thank you!

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#79

Post by Natsu »

joezydeco wrote: post #36
brudgers wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% isn't enough equity to justify a below market salary for something with a 10% chance of a $100,000,000 exit in five years...and if only the outlook were that good and imagining no dilution and benevolent actions by controlling shareholders. If the equity is important, then it should have some chance of producing fuck-you-money at liquidation. 0.05% is only fuck-you-money if there's a Google IPO size liquidation an…

10% chance of a $100,000,000 exit in five years That seems highly optimistic.

They're pointing out that, even if we assume a ridiculously high value for the equity, it's simply not worth any money. You're absorbing substantial risk for equity that has no chance of being worth real money.

This seems to be a common pattern in finance, where one party tries to shed all their risk cheaply.

Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?

#80

Post by lsc »

untog wrote: post #50

In short: you know too much. These salaries are taken by fresh college grads who don't know better, and think the adventure of "a startup" is better than working for a larger company (it can be, but there's no guarantee). Many startup CEOs would like you to believe they are the only ones doing interesting work, but there are plenty of larger organisations that are still fun to work for, and more likely to value you a…

>In short: you know too much. These salaries are taken by fresh college grads who don't know better, and think the adventure of "a startup" is better than working for a larger company (it can be, but there's no guarantee).

While you are right, you make it sound like $90K is underpaid for someone right out of college. $90K is pretty good for a promising kid with a fresh degree but no real experience. More than fair; they are unlikely to get much more at a real company. It's kinda silly for someone with 10+ years experience, but those 10+ years are worth something.

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