They're offering you the comp of someone who just graduated, they may not realize that though.
I haven't even graduated and I wouldn't touch that offer with a 10 foot pole.
Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
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Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#62Don't worry about playing hardball in the negotiation. You can preface your negotiation by saying something like this.
"As long as we're on opposite sides of the negotiating table, I am going to do my best to get a fair share of possible upside from your company, and a decent salary. When we conclude this negotiation fairly, we'll be on the same side of the table and working towards the same goals."
"Now, I want half a percent and $110K."
Keep in mind that your BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement) is to say, "No thanks. Good luck." They need to hire somebody: time is money at their stage of business. You don't need to jump into their job.
But don't have this conversation at all unless you think their business idea is worth five years of your life.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#63What are you expecting from pre-Series A startups? There are lots of pre-Series A startups with six figures in funding and little to no revenue. For obvious reasons, most of them are not going to be paying $140,000/year and if they are, you might not be comfortable with the runway risk. In terms of equity, since you mentioned that you are the breadwinner for your family, why are you sweating the equity? A lot of folk…
A lot of us understand pre-Series A startups are cash poor, and for the right company, wouldn't mind working for (reasonably) less cash.
But 0.05% equity? Seriously, that's insulting. Don't these morons want their employees to be motivated? Isn't that the point of equity?
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#64[deleted]
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
H1's working for lower pay seems like a fallacy. Part of the visa process involves paying prevailing wages.
Last I checked, the metrics around prevailing wages to hire an H1B are not adjusted based on the local market. So you can get away with paying an H1B the same in the Bay Area as you would in suburban Iowa.
Would you share a link? My impression was that market wages actually need to reflect the local wages, not national, but I'm not sure of this.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#66The target candidate for these startups largely doesn't exist. Most folks accepting such a salary in the Bay Area are recently out of college and living in small apartments with roommates. When it's all said and done, most of these startups will settle for a few offshore contractors or hire remote people who live in cheaper parts of the country where $90K goes a lot further. The tried and true "solution" to this prob…
H1's working for lower pay seems like a fallacy. Part of the visa process involves paying prevailing wages.
I wouldn't put too much stock in the "market wage" requirement. It's easily subverted. All it means is that the position advertised needs to pay market rate for that job title. You could hire an unusually talented senior engineer as an "analyst 1" and as long as you pay the analyst 1 market salary, you can get away with it. There's very little oversight.
Also, keep in mind that if it's difficult to hire at "market rate", that tends to be a signal that market rate is too low. Suppressing wage growth is, in the long term, not really all that different from lowering wages (suppose that there is no wage growth for 10 years - "market rate" remains the same - in an inflationary economy, this means wages are much lower in real terms). This is why some people are now proposing a wage requirement considerably higher than market rate for H1Bs, to ensure that the process doesn't suppress the wage growth needed to make the field attractive to talented people.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#67The target candidate for these startups largely doesn't exist. Most folks accepting such a salary in the Bay Area are recently out of college and living in small apartments with roommates. When it's all said and done, most of these startups will settle for a few offshore contractors or hire remote people who live in cheaper parts of the country where $90K goes a lot further. The tried and true "solution" to this prob…
H1's working for lower pay seems like a fallacy. Part of the visa process involves paying prevailing wages.
Yes by law there is a prevailing wage rule, however in practice this is abused.
1) It is basically never enforced 2) The people rubber stamping the applications don't have a clue about the person, the job, or the title
What happens is employers pigeon hole developers into less experienced roles with lower pay grades according to the BLS (the source of data employers must use to justify the wage)
For instance you can take a person with 10 years experience and either say she is a 'Level 1 Web Developer' at 52k in SF, OR you can say she is a 'Level 4 Software Developers, Systems Software' at 134k in SF. Which would you chose as an employer? And these are extremes, you can play somewhere in the middle depending on your comfort.
http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesWizardStep2.aspx?stateName=C... and then I selected the BLS region as SF and you can see all of the occupations they define which sound similar and are described similarly, but have wildly different pay scales.
EDIT: I'm reading the prevailing wage guidance document now[0] and employers can actually provide their own wage data surveys to determine prevailing wage. Wow!
[0] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised...
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#68What are you expecting from pre-Series A startups? There are lots of pre-Series A startups with six figures in funding and little to no revenue. For obvious reasons, most of them are not going to be paying $140,000/year and if they are, you might not be comfortable with the runway risk. In terms of equity, since you mentioned that you are the breadwinner for your family, why are you sweating the equity? A lot of folk…
So, why the hell would anyone leave that much money on the table? If you're asking me to do something crazy, you better be willing to pay for it. .5% equity, especially when it will end up being diluted, is a fool's game.
> So, why the hell would anyone leave that much money on the table? If you're asking me to do something crazy, you better be willing to pay for it.
At most early-stage startups, there is no money on the table. If you want to maximize your earnings, focusing your job search on pre-Series A startups is a horrible waste of time.
The OP seems to be asking for startup excitement, reasonable hours, high salary and meaningful equity. At a pre-Series A startup, you might be able to find two of the four.
> .5% equity, especially when it will end up being diluted, is a fool's game.
Rhetorical exercise:
1. What's .5% of $0?
2. What's 2% of $0?
3. What's 10% of $0?
Equity at early-stage startups is a fool's game.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#69You can always negotiate more, if you can convince them you are worth the investment. They might be willing to shell out more compensation if they really want you.
And not all corporate jobs are boring. Find one that fits what you like to do.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#70Relevant to this discussion: A startup job ad for $40k salary in SF.