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Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

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Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#221

Post by rmc »

feedjoelpie wrote: post #175
vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

From the hirer side, maybe this is unreasonable given "No matter what, don't give them a number," but my past experiences on the other side of the table lead me to try and press a different dynamic. I try to get us and applicants talking salary during the first interview, before we even know if we fit each other at all. The rationale is: A) If how much money you want from us isn't even an option, we don't waste your…

If you want applications to talk salary from the start, do you also hold yourself to that theory and mention salary range on the job application/first phone call?

Or do you only want the employee to give up information?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#222

Post by rmc »

Luyt wrote: post #150
vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

> DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. [...] No matter what, don't give them a number. Make them give you a number first and negotiate from there. What tactic do you use for this?

"I'm sorry but my employement contract with my current employer doesn't let me talk about my current salary while I'm employed. You wouldn't want to employ someone who breaks contracts, would you?"

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#223

Post by vinceguidry »

eru wrote: post #216
vinceguidry wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to explain in any kind of useful way. Let's just say I hack my career like I hack code. I don't expect it to ever stop.

That's a good attitude you have! But honestly, you are still working for peanuts, if you are any good as a programmer. How long have you been programming professionally?

Professionally, only about 4 years, also a year as a sysadmin and a few in the Air Force a while back. That's why the peanuts. I'm not the most amazing programmer ever, but I am pretty good. I also have business sense and the ability to talk convincingly to non-technical people.

These things ultimately mean much more to a company, at least my company, than years at firm. I'm also constantly pushing myself to build more skills, not just programming, but also social skills too. I've noticed the longer I do this, the more people are willing to listen to and value my input. My company hierarchy is very flat for one that does $40 million in revenue. I see my CEO whenever he's in the office, his office is right next to my workspace.

It's a case of, sure, I could go somewhere and get a $X0,000 raise and finally check that six figure salary box, or I work here towards middle / upper management and reach that goal in just a few years and get a $X00,000 raise. I'm comfortable right now, no need to make a decision right now, I don't hit two years here until July anyway. If by then it doesn't look like the vision I have for my career here is really viable, then sure I'll start looking.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#224

Post by seekingcharlie »

d357r0y3r wrote: post #87
seekingcharlie wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently asked for (and was awarded) a raise. I have weekly 1-on-1's with my boss (CEO) - they usually go for about an hour & we simply talk about everything happening in the business/team. At the end, I simply said 'Something I want to bring up is that I've looked at the market and I don't feel I am being paid adequately for the value I'm creating'. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't an awkward conversation. I didn'…

I think the dynamic at your company (where you're a direct report to the CEO) is a totally different animal than your standard corporate dev job. When you're working at a place that employs 1000+ people, these types of conversations are much less likely to go in the direction of the employee.

That's true - we're a small (15 person) team & I lead Design & Product so the CEO is my "direct report".

However, just because you have a lower likelihood of success, it doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. If you receive a 'No', it will probably speed up the inevitable decision of whether you actually want to stay with this company (knowing that they aren't going to incentivise your performance).

I would also keep in mind that you should only be asking if you either feel you're being paid lower than market or that you've taken on more responsibility so now your wage doesn't adequately match your role. Just asking periodically without a reason isn't going to work for anyone.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#225

Post by Gurkenmaster »

gknoy wrote: post #196
itsybitsycoder wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be pretty upset if I was still at work at 12am on any day, Friday especially...

In the context of "leaving early", I suspect he meant that some of his coworkers left at lunchtime on Friday, after having worked longer earlier in the week.

Yes. I messed up the time format. I would have said 0:00 If I meant midnight in germany.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#226

Post by aplummer »

aplummer wrote: post #74
dustingetz wrote: post #73

here's an idea: The market for developers is a lemon's market. That means, if you have 100 good cars selling at $2000, and 100 lemon cars selling at $1000, all the lemons will sell first, because the people making purchasing decisions aren't expert enough to tell the difference. So it is very rare to be paid based on value, because why would a [CEO|CTO|hiring manager|whatever] pay $1M for this guy, when he can pay $1…

I dont think the CEO should be doing the hiring... it should really be the tech lead -> CEO later to confirm?

Ill clarify bluntly because apparently this was worth a -1.

"when he can pay $150k for that guy, and he can't really tell the difference between them?"

Your tech lead should be able to tell the difference and see the actual value in programmers and explain that to the money people. That is why this lemon theory entirely requires a bad hiring structure.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#227

Post by rmc »

jghn wrote: post #200
vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

While I don't normally believe in lying during a hiring process, a former boss once told me that the right way to answer the "how much do you make?" question is to say you're currently making what you want them to pay you, figuring that they'll tack a bit more on top of that. I haven't decided if I'm open to lying like that or not, but I liked it.

One problem with that is that if they can see your tax details, they will know what you were on. If they catch you lying in the interview you could be fired. So if you ever piss off your boss, or they don't like you, they can let you go immediatly.

In countries that aren't the USA, and don't have that "at-will" crap, giving up all the legal employment rights is a bad move to make.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#228

Post by logfromblammo »

phamilton wrote: post #207
logfromblammo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like some form of confirmation bias. You may not be aware of the usefulness of conversations that happen under circumstances not favorable to you observing their content. The company-supplied lunches lead to useful conversations in a place where you are able to judge their utility . When people from your office go out and do not invite you, you are unable to know who is talking to whom, or what they are t…

Confirmation bias is fine here, because we are trying to establish whether or not lunch being provided benefits employees. The anecdotal evidence suggests that it is beneficial to >0 employees at >0 companies, therefore the claim that it only benefits the employer is false.

You also have to show that it could not have been more beneficial for the employee to be doing something else.

You can't discount opportunity costs. If Oprah was giving away cars to everyone who went out to eat lunch at a local strip mall, you can't reasonably say that a person who found a quarter on the break room floor benefited by staying in the office to eat lunch.

You only observed the conversation that you observed. You did not observe all the potential conversations that might have occurred instead of the one you heard. The value of such conversations is the result of an expected value calculation, based on the potential benefit multiplied by the possibility that such benefit would be realized. That involves a lot of guesswork, obviously.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#229

Post by frandroid »

curiously wrote: post #121
No1 wrote: post #40

The main tenet of this blog post is that you should argue for your compensation based on the amount of value you add to the company. That's nice in theory, but the techies' dilemma is that it's often difficult or impossible to put a hard number on the value they have added. How many customers were retained because you decreased response times by 100ms? How many customers were gained because of that slick UI you creat…

>The reality is, you're basically going to get paid based upon what your employer has deemed everyone else in your position is earning, plus or minus some % based upon experience level, your reputation, and how badly the company needs the position filled. If you don't like that, time to go into management or sales. Pretty much this. If you are not part of the profit generating side of the business, you will always be…

> paid based upon what your employer has deemed

Your job is to change that perception.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#230

Post by eru »

mavsman wrote: post #49
jacalata wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try out Ramit Sethi's videos ( http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XY5SeCl_8NE ). I haven't watched any yet myself but I've heard they are good. He also has an article on negotiation at http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/salary-negotiation...

Started watching that video and got 5 minutes into it. Thank you for sharing it. It shows good negotiation techniques but it brings out two thoughts/emotions in me. 1. This conversation is painful/awkward 2. Prepping for negotiations is stressful

More money will reduce the stress in your life (if you are using it right). So overall, it's still a net reduction.
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