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Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

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Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#141

Post by Terr_ »

beachstartup wrote: post #32

as a business owner/operator involved in everything from sales to hiring to vendor purchasing, here's the most important thing: if you can't walk away from a negotiation, it's not really a negotiation. if you feel, at any point, compelled to stay even though your interests are not being met in a reasonable matter, you're going to get screwed - and it's your fault, not the other person's. in a true negotiation both pa…

> if you can't walk away from a negotiation, it's not really a negotiation.

Reminds me of a quote from a G.K. Chesterton book:

> "But surely it is a very old principle of law that a leonine contract is not a free contract. And it is hypocrisy to pretend that a bargain between a starving man and a man with all the food is anything but a leonine contract."

> He glanced up at the fire-escape, a ladder leading up to the balcony of a very high attic above. "I live in that garret; or rather on that balcony. If I fell off the balcony and hung on a spike, so far from the steps that somebody with a ladder could offer to rescue me if I gave him a hundred million francs, I should be quite morally justified in using his ladder and then telling him to go to hell for his hundred million. Hell, indeed, is not out of the picture; for it is a sin of injustice to force an advantage against the desperate [...]"

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks05/0500421.txt

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#142

Post by bdowling »

mikekchar wrote: post #122

In something like 25 years in this industry I have seen this opinion time and time again. "I am not being paid what I'm worth". You can negotiate to higher levels of compensation, but there is more to life (and your job) than money. I have often seen people price themselves out of a job. A normal high tech company runs an R&D budget that is less than 10% of earnings. The rest of the money goes to cost of sales, infra…

You won't be enjoying 'the privileges of being "that dependable guy"' in your retirement.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#143

Post by jacquesm »

hnriot wrote: post #106

interesting to read all these from the engineer's perspective. from the manager's side of the table things are quite different. If an employee comes to me and asks for a raise then I begin the process to replace them. We give reasonable raises, we pay fair market value and an engineer might make a little more elsewhere but they'll be giving back their RSUs and the opportunity to work on really cool stuff. If, however…

> but asking for raises means they aren't happy

That's an assumption on your part.

And since you state up front that you are giving reasonable raises you essentially forestall the negotiations so unless your definition of 'reasonable' is different than the ones that your employees maintain you should have next to no turnover. If that's not the case you might have a problem there.

The 'opportunity to work on cool stuff' is worth $0 to a working dad with a mortgage, so likely you can do this but only to younger people, but people do not remain young forever and sooner or later their expenses will go up. And you sound like you will not be taking their position into account at all.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#144

Post by vproman »

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE.

Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront.

If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewhere around that range as acceptable. You don't have to tell them that you've researched their rates and find them acceptable, because that too would be like giving them a range, instead the research is simply to avoid wasting your time. You wouldn't want to interview for a job that pays the position with compensation worth at most $60k when you're already making at least $100k.

This way, you have an advantage: you know roughly how much they pay but they have almost no idea how much (i.e. how little) you will accept as compensation. Best case scenario, they offer you MORE than what your research said they would, and you negotiate a little more on top of it and accept, assuming you actually like the job. Even if they say no to your counter offer, you're still ahead. Worst case scenario, they offer you less, they say no to your counter offers, and you have to decline. Either your research was wrong or they were lowballing you, either way you've got multiple other interviews in process (right?) so move on. If you find your research is repeatedly off the mark, find better sources.

No matter what, don't give them a number. Make them give you a number first and negotiate from there.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#145

Post by galfarragem »

> Technology people are without a doubt the most inept group when it comes to negotiating for compensation.

I would rephrase it as:

People that love what they do are without a doubt the most inept group when it comes to negotiating for compensation.

I think it doesn't matter if you are from IT, an architect or any other job. If you really like what you do, you don't mind to do it for minimal money and business people will exploit that weakness. For example, in architectural field, relevant architects are sometimes invited to be guest teachers in colleges. Once one said during his class:

If they discover that I like to come here, they will stop paying me.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#146

Post by UK-AL »

curiously wrote: post #35

A tech employer in Vancouver once told me that if an engineer tries to negotiate for a higher salary that is a signal that they care only about money and that they wouldn't be good hire, regardless of their experience and skillset. This is one of the "big" tech companies in Vancouver, BC. Never mind the hundreds of small sweatshops here.

And yet that's exactly what company is trying to do.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#147

Post by UK-AL »

mikekchar wrote: post #122

In something like 25 years in this industry I have seen this opinion time and time again. "I am not being paid what I'm worth". You can negotiate to higher levels of compensation, but there is more to life (and your job) than money. I have often seen people price themselves out of a job. A normal high tech company runs an R&D budget that is less than 10% of earnings. The rest of the money goes to cost of sales, infra…

Management is most private small companies are pretty close, been there from the start etc etc

It's pretty hard to for a late employee to break in.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#148

Post by UK-AL »

hnriot wrote: post #106

interesting to read all these from the engineer's perspective. from the manager's side of the table things are quite different. If an employee comes to me and asks for a raise then I begin the process to replace them. We give reasonable raises, we pay fair market value and an engineer might make a little more elsewhere but they'll be giving back their RSUs and the opportunity to work on really cool stuff. If, however…

Several bad assumptions here.

If they're getting better offers elsewhere, its not market rate.

Whats to say other companies aren't doing cool stuff? All companies say this.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#149

Post by Luyt »

gaius wrote: post #135
hnriot wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are all kinds of intangibles not mentioned here. what if you have an idea that transforms the company's sales numbers or you dream up a better way of doing the builds that reduces integration bugs. So many ways an employee contributes intangibly. you're right, pay is basically what your peers make +/-

Yes, particularly in the UK the vestiges of the old class system are that no matter what price the market clears at a blue-collar worker can never be paid more than a white-collar manager. So if you are in a situation where there is a glut of junior managers and a scarcity of talented engineers, then seemingly inexplicable things start happening to salaries.

What do you think will happen? Will the engineers earn more than the managers, or will the managers salaries go up just because the engineers earn more?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#150

Post by Luyt »

vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

> DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. [...] No matter what, don't give them a number. Make them give you a number first and negotiate from there.

What tactic do you use for this?

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