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Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

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Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#171

Post by GFischer »

wyclif wrote: post #90
benihana wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is something that only inexperienced people fall for though. It's nice to get food, but perks like agency, autonomy, and trust are so much more important than free soda and pizza. Especially when I can get paid more and buy the kind of snacks I like.

Agency, trust, and autonomy are great, but they're no replacement for rock solid health, vision, and dental benefits, plus a matching 401k. Now that's sexy. Disclaimer: I'm married and a father.

However, the absence of those can make you sad and bitter.

I work at a company with rock solid health, vision, and dental benefits, very good working hours, and I can't wait to get out.

It's full of married employees with children that hope to retire here. It is an excellent place for pregnant women, but no good if you're young or have any kind of ambition.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#172

Post by ddingus »

johnward wrote: post #162
ddingus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another manager here. I don't automatically do this. I want to know why, and what their value proposition is. People have things happen and reasons and goals for wanting to change their comp, and frankly, that goes both ways. I've had people want less and to change roles for very similar reasons. Replacement is expensive, so is commitment and vision. For some people, yes. It's a trigger for replacement. For others, i…

What would you say if the "value proposition" is simply Company Y will pay me more?

It is a discussion regardless. And it is one where motivarions, goals, etc... all play out.

Could be time to replace, could be time to make different employment arrangements, whatever.

I might advise them to take the offer.

See my other comment.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#173

Post by archon »

GFischer wrote: post #169
vinceguidry wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a $15K raise last month, from $60 to $75K. I expect a much bigger one next year. It's not impossible to get those raises, but you have to align your thinking with the way the company operates, have supporters in the company, and bring real value to the table. If you're just checking boxes or asking for more money "just because", then you deserve the arched eyebrow you're bound to get.

You're in the U.S.? By reading Hacker News I had the impression that everyone there that is not a junior is making at least U$100k/year, except for special cases in rural areas or small towns.

That impression is a bit skewed by the large number of HNers who work in places like silicon valley and NYC, I think. There are a lot of places in the US where you can be very, very comfortable on $75k a year.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#174

Post by Beached »

johnward wrote: post #158
NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

"The only way to get a 20 to 25k raise is to find another job. Unless of course you are doing the job of 4 people which in IT 99.9% of the times you are. Don't believe me? Go ask for a 20k raise if their eyebrows shoot up like Mr. Spock then you know how much you are worth. I sure hope you have another job lined up because that's the queue to them you are looking." I used this technique to get that much of an increas…

I used this technique as well, it didn't end up in a raise or another job position, or any change at all. They just said no. I ended up taking that other job offer I had lined up since it was clear the company views its workers as replaceable cogs rather than valued contributors.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#175

Post by feedjoelpie »

vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

From the hirer side, maybe this is unreasonable given "No matter what, don't give them a number," but my past experiences on the other side of the table lead me to try and press a different dynamic. I try to get us and applicants talking salary during the first interview, before we even know if we fit each other at all.

The rationale is:

A) If how much money you want from us isn't even an option, we don't waste your time. We can be very up-front about that before a lengthy interview process proceeds.

B) We can judge your follow-up interview (generally a full-day paid tryout) against how much you expect to be paid. Which on the negative side lets us weed out expensive mediocrity, or on the positive side, give opportunities to people who aren't quite there yet but wouldn't cost much to take a chance on and try to train up.

A few people definitely look at it with suspicion, but in general I think it's worked out better for everyone.

Also, as an aside, I would take issue with what you said about researching what a company pays. For so many companies (mostly small ones), all you can do is ask around and find a current or former employee who is willing to tell you. And that is so often, for most applicants, not an opportunity you get. I think you're making that research sound much easier than it actually is.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#176

Post by bengali3 »

jerguismi wrote: post #167
vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

Btw, I've heard exactly the opposite. That by giving a number first-hand, you can anchor the price point, and therefore gain an edge. What about giving them a number, what kind of salary you would except, instead of giving the number how much you earn now?

yes, its commonly only recommended to offer first IF you expect their offer to be WAY off from yours or expect them to significantly lowball you. ie set the negotiations into a range, and make them the bad guys for revealing they had:

a. a lower opinion of what you're abilities are worth

b. lower expectations for what you'd be delivering

c. lower value of the position they need filled

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#177

Post by bengali3 »

Beached wrote: post #174
johnward wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only way to get a 20 to 25k raise is to find another job. Unless of course you are doing the job of 4 people which in IT 99.9% of the times you are. Don't believe me? Go ask for a 20k raise if their eyebrows shoot up like Mr. Spock then you know how much you are worth. I sure hope you have another job lined up because that's the queue to them you are looking." I used this technique to get that much of an increas…

I used this technique as well, it didn't end up in a raise or another job position, or any change at all. They just said no. I ended up taking that other job offer I had lined up since it was clear the company views its workers as replaceable cogs rather than valued contributors.

I believe you missed a key point of this technique

>First found a job that I was actually willing to quit for.

Check out BATNA - all about improving your Second option

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#178

Post by nadam »

"the first is that they usually actually like their jobs. As long as they get to work with the cool tech and the neat toys, they’ll sleep under their desks if they have to."

I have never seen anyone like that who for example have a family... Only very young and very naive people do this; maybe there are lots of them, but I don't think they are the majority.

"our average programmer approaches salary negotiations like this: (1) I need ‘x’ to survive. (2) It would be nice to save a bit. (3) I need to pay my taxes."

That seems to be a strawman. I mean some very young and very naive programmers would do that, but all my programmer friends do this:

(1) I am a fairly good C++ developer. (2) I ask all my fairly good C++ programmer friends how much they are paid in the country where I live. I also ask them which are the companies which pay wel, so that I will apply to those. (3) I try to ask for the upper part of that range, at the companies I have heard pay well. I try multiple companies.

And basically that's what you can do. Bigger companies are mostly looking for replacable people. They mostly need 'good C++ programmers'/'good enterprise java developers'/'good web developers' etc... and will train you in their special systems. They will not care about your reasoning about how much business value you bring to their company: First that is so hard to measure that you cannot measure that, second they just do dozens of interviews with other people, and will simply hire other people if you want bigger pay than the realistic market range.

When you are a big gun or a specialist with some very unique skills, or when you are talking to a smaller company who have no established policy on developer salaries than there is more to it. But for most people at most companies: You just have to know the typical salary 'your kind' can get, and you have to ask for that, and that is all to it.

Programmers are mostly a commodity, but a quite well paid commodity at most companies. Which means that you can get a quite good salary without having extremely good negotiation skills (just using the heuristic I described), but you cannot get much more whatever negotiation skills you have.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#179

Post by anon123anon »

noname123 wrote: post #114
NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

(Sigh). I wish I was making 150K starting salary. Unfortunately, I'm not and I live in BosWash which makes me part of the below-welfare-wage numbers. I wish folks could have more attitudes like NinjaTime so that they can become the enlightened masses. Nothing is more discouraging than watching Joe and Jane from high school and college getting promotions at their consulting, law and medical careers knowing that I was…

> knowing that I was way smarter than they were.

You're not smarter than them. If you were, you would have thought about your career, instead of sloppily stumbling into the first thing that appealed to the teenage version of you.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#180

Post by alandarev »

vacri wrote: post #113
jsprogrammer wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shut down the IT and watch all those profits disappear. As in, finance/sales guy can't pull up his daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly numbers. Oh, and your customers are gone too because you can no longer deliver any product or added-value. So, no income (except investments).

There are very few unnecessary jobs in today's economically-rationalised world. Fire the cleaning staff, and see how long your other staff hang around with piling-up garbage and a lack of toilet cleaning/stocking. Fire the receptionists and watch as a ton of work moves elsewhere because you're too hard to get hold of.

A debatable subject, but still, have a look at: http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gra...
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