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Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

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Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#81

Post by phamilton »

meddlepal wrote: post #33
cornellwright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employer that provides free food, I think there's more to it than that in that both sides receive more value. We don't provide free food in order to pay our employees less. We provide free food because we see a lot of value in everyone eating together and employees get a lot of value in just not having to think about lunch or spend the time to go out and eat somewhere. I think most people get more value you out…

You provide free food because you get more working time out of your employees. Any other benefit your pushing is quite honestly, bullshit. They're sitting together? Great; odds are they're talking about their job and that's only beneficial to the employer. The other problem with free food is that it starts to feel like an obligation to consume it. I like eating out about once a week otherwise I brown-bag it most of t…

In an organization that enables and embraces employee initiatives, I have found that eatting together greatly benefits me, the employee. Cross team socializing has led to many new initiatives that were profitable for the company and for me personally (promotions and raises came as a result).

Eating together can be accomplished through culture alone but providing food is probably easier and more successful.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#82

Post by ryanSrich »

cornellwright wrote: post #26
Swizec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I like to say "Just pay me more, I can take care of my own perks. Promise." Sure, free food is great and all. But we're not kindergarteners are we? I'm an adult and I like to take care of my own food (and such). Free beer and pizza is for helping your friend move. Or for giving a talk at a *camp event. It's not for producing hundreds of thousands if not millions in value for your employer.

As an employer that provides free food, I think there's more to it than that in that both sides receive more value. We don't provide free food in order to pay our employees less. We provide free food because we see a lot of value in everyone eating together and employees get a lot of value in just not having to think about lunch or spend the time to go out and eat somewhere. I think most people get more value you out…

This is such an outdated way of thinking (asses in seats). Your company then completely eliminates the possibility of remote work if this lunch time eat-along is so important to the cogs in your machine. You're not providing your employees with food because it benefits them. You're providing your employees with food because it forces them to always be working.

> We provide free food because we see a lot of value in everyone eating together and employees get a lot of value in just not having to think about lunch or spend the time to go out and eat somewhere.

This is literally saying that your employees get free food so that they can stay at work and only think about work and only eat with people from work...

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#83

Post by lifeisstillgood »

ryanmonroe wrote: post #43
No1 wrote: post #40

The main tenet of this blog post is that you should argue for your compensation based on the amount of value you add to the company. That's nice in theory, but the techies' dilemma is that it's often difficult or impossible to put a hard number on the value they have added. How many customers were retained because you decreased response times by 100ms? How many customers were gained because of that slick UI you creat…

The value you add to the company is not based on how many customers were gained from your completion of task X or similar metrics. If you decrease hosting costs by $15k per month and only get paid $5k per month but dozens of others would do the job for $3k, you aren't in a good position to ask for a raise. Your value to the company is how much it would cost, in time, effort, and money, to find a replacement(s).

Time effort money multiplied by risk of getting less value

That's the important component - the volatility of performance has a major impact on price of an option !

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#85

Post by jasonwocky »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #83
ryanmonroe wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value you add to the company is not based on how many customers were gained from your completion of task X or similar metrics. If you decrease hosting costs by $15k per month and only get paid $5k per month but dozens of others would do the job for $3k, you aren't in a good position to ask for a raise. Your value to the company is how much it would cost, in time, effort, and money, to find a replacement(s).

Time effort money multiplied by risk of getting less value That's the important component - the volatility of performance has a major impact on price of an option !

Well, to be fair, there's also a chance of getting more value.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#86

Post by kylec »

cornellwright wrote: post #26
Swizec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I like to say "Just pay me more, I can take care of my own perks. Promise." Sure, free food is great and all. But we're not kindergarteners are we? I'm an adult and I like to take care of my own food (and such). Free beer and pizza is for helping your friend move. Or for giving a talk at a *camp event. It's not for producing hundreds of thousands if not millions in value for your employer.

As an employer that provides free food, I think there's more to it than that in that both sides receive more value. We don't provide free food in order to pay our employees less. We provide free food because we see a lot of value in everyone eating together and employees get a lot of value in just not having to think about lunch or spend the time to go out and eat somewhere. I think most people get more value you out…

I agree with this. My employer provides free lunch three days per week and I find myself wishing it was every day. Going out and finding lunch on my own is a huge hassle and takes a long time. I'm happy to quickly pop down to the cafeteria, grab a bite, and head right back to work. Win win.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#87

Post by d357r0y3r »

seekingcharlie wrote: post #51
watty wrote: post #25

I'm about to ask for a raise for the first time but I'm not entirely sure how to handle it. I've been with this company for 7 years and only received 2-3% increases the past 3 years. I interviewed at a competitor and they offered me a 20% increase, which I turned down. During negotiations should I simply ask for them to match? I don't want them to think I'm actively looking for a new job but want to get paid my worth…

I recently asked for (and was awarded) a raise. I have weekly 1-on-1's with my boss (CEO) - they usually go for about an hour & we simply talk about everything happening in the business/team. At the end, I simply said 'Something I want to bring up is that I've looked at the market and I don't feel I am being paid adequately for the value I'm creating'. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't an awkward conversation. I didn'…

I think the dynamic at your company (where you're a direct report to the CEO) is a totally different animal than your standard corporate dev job. When you're working at a place that employs 1000+ people, these types of conversations are much less likely to go in the direction of the employee.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#88

Post by MichaelGG »

ryanSrich wrote: post #82
cornellwright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employer that provides free food, I think there's more to it than that in that both sides receive more value. We don't provide free food in order to pay our employees less. We provide free food because we see a lot of value in everyone eating together and employees get a lot of value in just not having to think about lunch or spend the time to go out and eat somewhere. I think most people get more value you out…

This is such an outdated way of thinking (asses in seats). Your company then completely eliminates the possibility of remote work if this lunch time eat-along is so important to the cogs in your machine. You're not providing your employees with food because it benefits them. You're providing your employees with food because it forces them to always be working. > We provide free food because we see a lot of value in e…

Some places may make it work, but teams not being together is a huge drawback. I think Peopleware covered it and it was one of the top detriments. Something like a 50% penalty in project schedules when teams were remote. That lines up with many projects I've seen first hand, too. Calling it outdated doesn't change anything.

There's also tons of non-engineering stuff that benefits from being together, onsite. Stray comments might lead to huge import improvements. In my pervious company, there were always large things we'd find out when we'd have team leaders meet up. And this was a small 15 person business!

It takes a lot of directed effort to make remote work. The GP post about wanting people together has a lot going for it.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#89

Post by drdeadringer »

cat9 wrote: post #79
No1 wrote: post #40

The main tenet of this blog post is that you should argue for your compensation based on the amount of value you add to the company. That's nice in theory, but the techies' dilemma is that it's often difficult or impossible to put a hard number on the value they have added. How many customers were retained because you decreased response times by 100ms? How many customers were gained because of that slick UI you creat…

You can address most of those concerns with algebra, some light research, and Fermi estimates. This is not a problem where you need precision, just a reasonable level of accuracy and a well-presented argument.

> ... and Fermi estimates

I can figure out which algebra to use and what light research to perform... but may you please educate me on these "Fermi estimates" regarding salary negotiation?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#90

Post by wyclif »

benihana wrote: post #80
gaius wrote: post #12

Free food is such a no-brainer, if you're a manager. For £5 of pizza you can get £50-100 of work, easy, and the workers think they're getting the better deal...

I feel like this is something that only inexperienced people fall for though. It's nice to get food, but perks like agency, autonomy, and trust are so much more important than free soda and pizza. Especially when I can get paid more and buy the kind of snacks I like.

Agency, trust, and autonomy are great, but they're no replacement for rock solid health, vision, and dental benefits, plus a matching 401k. Now that's sexy.

Disclaimer: I'm married and a father.

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