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Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

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Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#91

Post by thedufer »

cornellwright wrote: post #26
Swizec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I like to say "Just pay me more, I can take care of my own perks. Promise." Sure, free food is great and all. But we're not kindergarteners are we? I'm an adult and I like to take care of my own food (and such). Free beer and pizza is for helping your friend move. Or for giving a talk at a *camp event. It's not for producing hundreds of thousands if not millions in value for your employer.

As an employer that provides free food, I think there's more to it than that in that both sides receive more value. We don't provide free food in order to pay our employees less. We provide free food because we see a lot of value in everyone eating together and employees get a lot of value in just not having to think about lunch or spend the time to go out and eat somewhere. I think most people get more value you out…

I'd like to second this. Where I work we get catered lunch, and it's clearly a win-win. Getting food outside the office is at least a 15 minute round-trip and, amazingly, almost always costs more than catering.

We also have a good culture around it - people who don't feel like socializing frequently take food back to their desks instead of eating with everyone else, which I think removes some of the issues people take with the idea.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#92

Post by vinceguidry »

NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

I got a $15K raise last month, from $60 to $75K. I expect a much bigger one next year. It's not impossible to get those raises, but you have to align your thinking with the way the company operates, have supporters in the company, and bring real value to the table.

If you're just checking boxes or asking for more money "just because", then you deserve the arched eyebrow you're bound to get.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#93

Post by tim333 »

dustingetz wrote: post #73

here's an idea: The market for developers is a lemon's market. That means, if you have 100 good cars selling at $2000, and 100 lemon cars selling at $1000, all the lemons will sell first, because the people making purchasing decisions aren't expert enough to tell the difference. So it is very rare to be paid based on value, because why would a [CEO|CTO|hiring manager|whatever] pay $1M for this guy, when he can pay $1…

It's probably an issue which is why to get rich it's good to own equity in the company. Take for example Brian Acton, turned down for a job at Facebook in 2009, cofounded Whatsapp, acquired by Facebook in 2014 for $19bn.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#94

Post by imaginenore »

NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

^ This guy is right. Changing your job will get you a much higher raise than asking.

In my own experience I only got a significant raise once in my career - I asked for $90/hr when I was making 80/hr, and they gave it to my to my surprise. That's around $20K/year.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#95

Post by charlieflowers »

drdeadringer wrote: post #89
cat9 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can address most of those concerns with algebra, some light research, and Fermi estimates. This is not a problem where you need precision, just a reasonable level of accuracy and a well-presented argument.

> ... and Fermi estimates I can figure out which algebra to use and what light research to perform... but may you please educate me on these "Fermi estimates" regarding salary negotiation?

"In physics or engineering education, a Fermi problem, Fermi quiz, Fermi question, or Fermi estimate is an estimation problem designed to teach dimensional analysis, approximation, and the importance of clearly identifying one's assumptions. The solution of such a problem is usually a back-of-the-envelope calculation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#96

Post by siliconc0w »

my short version:

Every two to three years start looking for another job - chances are you are being underpaid and holding out for a meaningful raise or promotion is usually a bad idea. Few companies seem to keep salaries properly indexed to the market. At least in IT.

When you get an offer - always always counter it. No reasonable business is going to withdraw an offer if you counter. Figure out what you're worth and add 5-10%. If the first offer is already on the 'high end' of the spectrum still counter and ask for a signing bonus, options, better year end bonus, or more vacation. That will most likely be the most profitable email/phone-call you'll have - at least until you repeat the process in 2-3 years.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#97

Post by jsprogrammer »

skeoh wrote: post #52
NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

Sorry to be pedantic but it is the "cue" to them that you are looking, not "queue".

Kind of undercuts all the points made. Also, if you walk on water you should be working at Google or FaceBook? Hunh?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#98

Post by jacalata »

kelseyfrancis wrote: post #41
gaius wrote: post #12

Free food is such a no-brainer, if you're a manager. For £5 of pizza you can get £50-100 of work, easy, and the workers think they're getting the better deal...

I once had a major tech company tell me during negotiations that "you can't really put a price on free meals", which I thought was a truly absurd thing to say.

"That's valid, and that's why I'm going to consider them as $0 when calculating my total compensation".

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#99

Post by jsprogrammer »

tomp wrote: post #58
NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

> IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. Exactly. I'm pretty sure that IT is harder and requires more training/practice than e.g. finance or sales, but profits from those two are very easy to quantify and it's quite obvious who the deal-maker was, whereas IT is mostly teamwork and doesn't have obvious profits.

Shut down the IT and watch all those profits disappear. As in, finance/sales guy can't pull up his daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly numbers.

Oh, and your customers are gone too because you can no longer deliver any product or added-value. So, no income (except investments).

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#100

Post by ryanSrich »

MichaelGG wrote: post #88
ryanSrich wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an outdated way of thinking (asses in seats). Your company then completely eliminates the possibility of remote work if this lunch time eat-along is so important to the cogs in your machine. You're not providing your employees with food because it benefits them. You're providing your employees with food because it forces them to always be working. > We provide free food because we see a lot of value in e…

Some places may make it work, but teams not being together is a huge drawback. I think Peopleware covered it and it was one of the top detriments. Something like a 50% penalty in project schedules when teams were remote. That lines up with many projects I've seen first hand, too. Calling it outdated doesn't change anything. There's also tons of non-engineering stuff that benefits from being together, onsite. Stray co…

> but teams not being together is a huge drawback

Define together? What does that even mean? Together in the same room? I'd have to completely disagree. Teams working together is extremely important. Teams _being_ together, as in co-located, is just a preference.

> Peopleware covered it and it was one of the top detriments

Peopleware has ideas that have stood the test of time. However their opinions regarding remote work have not. The tools available to teams and engineers today are far superior to those in 2000 (not exactly sure on that date)

> Something like a 50% penalty in project schedules when teams were remote

This has absolutely nothing to do with remote work. This is just pure mismanagement. You cannot half-ass remote work. It's either a company wide culture or nothing at all.

> There's also tons of non-engineering stuff that benefits from being together, onsite

Like what?

> Stray comments might lead to huge import improvements

Just because you're not co-located does not mean you're just in silence throughout the day. There are a slew of chat clients and voice applications that allow remote teams to communicate easily throughout the day.

> In my pervious company, there were always large things we'd find out when we'd have team leaders meet up. And this was a small 15 person business!

Just because you're remote doesn't mean you don't have meetings. It also doesn't mean you never meet with people in person.

> It takes a lot of directed effort to make remote work

It takes a lot of directed effort to make any company culture work. And what exactly does "work" even mean? I've seen companies that are a complete mess and they have everyone strapped to their desks. Doing remote work right takes no more effort that doing co-location right. You just have to recognize the difference.

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