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New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

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Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#271

Post by mpyne »

markvdb wrote: post #90
fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Are you a US citizen? How would you react if supposedly close US allies were bugging the White House, the US senate and AT&T? Repeatedly? Five Eyes, Echelon, Merkel, Belgacom, ...

Um.... you perhaps know less than you think you do about what "close US allies" do and do not engage in behind closed doors. Half of the reason Five Eyes even exists is to reduce the threat of espionage conducted by close allies.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#272

Post by rhizome »

krapp wrote: post #142
rhizome wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty condescending. How many sports fans know how to be a pro athlete or manage a team? How many critics of government, "know what they're talking about," by your standard?

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. The poster I was replying to mentioned that it was odd that low-quality, uninformed arguments tend to crop up in threads like this a lot. People make broad statements about how evil and nigh-omnipotent the NSA is, and how deeply they've infiltrated every facet of human life. The existence of parallel construction leads to the assumption that every case involving the govern…

I understand, but when you say:

People make broad statements about how evil and nigh-omnipotent the NSA is, and how deeply they've infiltrated every facet of human life

...is not the reverse case also true? We find ourselves discussing a condition where a lot of information is unknown, on both sides, but nobody upbraids the intelligence communities for exhibiting the same tendencies in the same breath that they castigate those people analyzing the situation with incomplete information.

There is ignorance, conclusions based on assumptions and a desire to know more on all sides of the argument. It's the nature of the beast, and if criticism is going to be levelled in this context, it should be pointed at those who withold the transparency required for understanding.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#273

Post by rhizome »

dreamfactory2 wrote: post #260
omphalos wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One approach to countering sock-puppetry as a general problem is with increased transparency. Personally, I think lobste.rs' notion of a user tree is a step in the right direction: https://lobste.rs/u

What about the opposite approach - enforced anonymity so that arguments have to stand on their own merits?

An appearance of merit can be engineered/manufactured, which is one of the foundational concepts of classical trolling, not to mention thread-poisoning.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#274

Post by krapp »

rhizome wrote: post #272
krapp wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. The poster I was replying to mentioned that it was odd that low-quality, uninformed arguments tend to crop up in threads like this a lot. People make broad statements about how evil and nigh-omnipotent the NSA is, and how deeply they've infiltrated every facet of human life. The existence of parallel construction leads to the assumption that every case involving the govern…

I understand, but when you say: People make broad statements about how evil and nigh-omnipotent the NSA is, and how deeply they've infiltrated every facet of human life ...is not the reverse case also true? We find ourselves discussing a condition where a lot of information is unknown, on both sides, but nobody upbraids the intelligence communities for exhibiting the same tendencies in the same breath that they casti…

That's fair. The intelligence community really has no one to blame but themselves for that.

Arguably, secrecy exists for a good reason sometimes. But when you begin to treat the rest of the legal system, the government whose job it is to oversee you, and the public as enemies and keep everything as secret as possible, you really give people little to suspect anything but the worst.

I mean, here we are with what appears to be the biggest and most complex global data gathering correlation system in history - possibly a technological achievement to rival the web itself - and two terrorists who posted anti-American rhetoric on their Twitter accounts managed to bomb the Boston Marathon despite having been under surveillance at one point, and the Russians more or less tell us outright to watch these guys. They weren't exactly hiding behind 7 proxies so what the hell are we even doing?

How to interpret the cognitive dissonance in that? Maybe the system isn't as comprehensive as it appears? Maybe bureaucracy got in the way? Maybe the pieces just didn't come together in time? Is there even a Panopticon or not? Who knows.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#275

Post by lawnchair_larry »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #86

Here's a story for you. I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who has done anything wrong. I don't even mean that in the sense of "I pissed off the wrong people but technically haven't been charged." I mean that I am a vanilla, average, 9-5 working man of no interest to anybody. My geographical location is an accident of my…

Note: This story is meant to reference the two examples listed, and isn't my personal story. It is someone's story, and has almost certainly happened to many others who are unaware, given the MO described in the leaks.

I would not be surprised to find out that it has happened to me, but I don't think that is the case.

I can't edit anymore to clarify, but since it's not obvious from the post, especially if you don't read the references: I'm not either of the individuals who this happened to.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#276

Post by lawnchair_larry »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #266
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My story isn't about me. It's a hypothetical based on things that have actually been done to someone else.

So the whole thing is a lie? Who was it done to?

Confirmed to have happened to employees of Belgacom and Stellar PCS, and the fact that the technique itself is documented with a codename suggests it happens to others who weren't leaked.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#277

Post by kgarten »

ramrunner800 wrote: post #227
iamedward wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am glad for any document that has been leaked. Although we might not be able to see the whole picture yet it made one thing clear: the US government is at the same moral level as countries like Russia, North Korea or the Iran to me. They do neither respect the privacy of their citizens nor the privacy of any other person in the world. They might have some moral concepts that are a little bit more close to mine as a…

Good to know you see reading your mail as equivalent to executing people for their sexuality, interning hundreds of thousands in labor camps, and jailing all who dare oppose you. That definitely doesn't devalue the lives of all those people or reveal you as hysterically self-important.

I don't think he wanted to equalize both. Yet, snooping on your private conversations is wrong, executing people for their sexuality is also wrong. It's worse but both are wrong according to my value set ... this is a bit off topic, yet how would you rate the killing of innocents with drone strike?

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#279

Post by diminoten »

dang wrote: post #263
diminoten wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your attitude deserves the response I gave, if not something much harsher. You kill intellectual debate.

Please don't make comments like this or be personally rude on Hacker News. Even when you're sure you're right, it harms the site for everyone. That's why it's against the rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

What? Come on, I wasn't being rude, I was making a point. The nature of the responses on this topic, particularly on Hacker News are completely aggressive and kill any intellectual exploration or useful conversation.

I can't voice an opinion on this website that doesn't mesh with the popular opinion on this specific topic without being severely marginalized, mocked, and even ridiculed -- I think pointing that out should be allowed.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#280

Post by diminoten »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #265
diminoten wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show to who? You?

If by "me" you mean "the voters" then yes of course. What was that Russian proverb Ronald Regan was always so found of? Trust but verify? The verify part is very, very important. Blind trust with no accountability is totally insane. There has to come a point, during the lives of the people who have to be held accountable for what they've done, that what they've done comes to light. Or how do you propose we hold them…

You pick representatives, and they are shown the effectiveness of programs, because they are the ones who vote for the programs.

This isn't about you, or me, or any individual, that's not how this country works. Some things that are not very popular are absolutely necessary nonetheless.

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