New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle • Hacker News Board

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#81

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:29 PM UTC

elwin wrote: post #77

krapp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably right. No need to consider the arguments made by people who don't agree entirely with a particular point of view, or even discuss it at all. They're obviously just shills. Edit: Much of the 'pro NSA' comments I see here seem merely to suggest that not everything the NSA does is evil, and not every disclosure is necessarily useful. As often happens in threads like these, any such comments are dismissed…

Try looking at the comments from a different angle. Instead of grouping them into "pro-NSA" and "anti-NSA" categories, try checking for technical ignorance. Look for ideas about cyberwarfare based on bad analogies with real warfare. Look for a mindset that puts winning an arms race first and never considers ethical implications. Look for vague statements about protecting or harming America that don't explain whether…

[deleted]

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#82

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:35 PM UTC

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

[deleted]

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#83

Post by krapp » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:36 PM UTC

elwin wrote: post #77

krapp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably right. No need to consider the arguments made by people who don't agree entirely with a particular point of view, or even discuss it at all. They're obviously just shills. Edit: Much of the 'pro NSA' comments I see here seem merely to suggest that not everything the NSA does is evil, and not every disclosure is necessarily useful. As often happens in threads like these, any such comments are dismissed…

Try looking at the comments from a different angle. Instead of grouping them into "pro-NSA" and "anti-NSA" categories, try checking for technical ignorance. Look for ideas about cyberwarfare based on bad analogies with real warfare. Look for a mindset that puts winning an arms race first and never considers ethical implications. Look for vague statements about protecting or harming America that don't explain whether…

To be fair, I doubt many people (including myself) with an opinion either way actually know what they're talking about. The expert pool for knowledge about high-level classified government hacking is probably pretty small, even on Hacker News.

It's politics, and politics hits people in the lizard brain and short-circuits their ability to think rationally.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#84

Post by pakled_engineer » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:38 PM UTC

TheOsiris wrote: post #26

Afforess wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

I'd say it's safe to assume all 1.7 million documents, including the secrets his bot scraped that Snowden didn't want released are in the hands of the Chinese MSS already. I find it hard to believe they didn't set up shop beside his room in that HK hotel to use state intel agency methods to grab his keys, nor do I believe that his hasty destruction of his standard laptop wear-levelling flash drives in the airport before departure to Moscow actually destroyed all the data.

I bet there's a room stacked to the ceiling in printed US secret military documents in Beijing that they trade to Russia for cheap oil+gas imports. I realize Snowden never wanted that to happen but there's a reason why state's have strict methods to store and transport top secret data and they don't include using questionable XTS container software and staying in a HK hotel with the entire secret US archive stored on a commercial device.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#85

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:38 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #44

Afforess wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. Not so much Blofeld as Klingon: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2421112/NSA-director...

[deleted]

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#86

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:39 PM UTC

Here's a story for you.

I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who has done anything wrong. I don't even mean that in the sense of "I pissed off the wrong people but technically haven't been charged." I mean that I am a vanilla, average, 9-5 working man of no interest to anybody. My geographical location is an accident of my birth. Even still, I wasn't accidentally born in a high-conflict area, and my government is not at war. I'm a sysadmin at a legitimate ISP and my job is to keep the internet up and running smoothly.

This agency has stalked me in my personal life, undermined my ability to trust my friends attempting to connect with me on LinkedIn, and infected my family's computer. They did this because they wanted to bypass legal channels and spy on a customer who pays for services from my employer. Wait, no, they wanted the ability to potentially spy on future customers. Actually, that is still not accurate - they wanted to spy on everybody in case there was a potentially bad person interacting with a customer.

After seeing their complete disregard for anybody else, their immense resources, and their extremely sophisticated exploits and backdoors - knowing they will stop at nothing, and knowing that I was personally targeted - I'll be damned if I can ever trust any electronic device I own ever again.

You all rationalize this by telling me that it "isn't surprising", and that I don't live in the [USA,UK] and therefore I have no rights.

I just have one question.

Are you people even human?

[1]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/14/nsa-stellar/

[2]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-...

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#87

Post by dogma1138 » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:43 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #76

dogma1138 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that puts it under espionage not "whistleblowing", we don't call a N. Korean scientist that defected to the west who spills light on N. Korea's nuclear program a whistleblower, we call him a defector and a spy. Intelligence Agencies act on the behalf of their respective nations, there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa. As we already know the extent of the collection programmes the…

not 1000's of documents [...] of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do. Fearmonger much? So far my statistical risk to be killed in a train accident is significantly higher than being killed in a terrorist attack. And somehow it has been this way since before the intern…

What do terrorists have to do with anything? Nation states are far more likely to launch a cyber attack against the EU than a terrorist organisation.

And since when mass surveillance is a new thing? The US, some European allies, Russia and any other capable country were conducting mass surveillance since pretty much WW2 if not earlier. Tapping phone lines including the transatlantic phone cables since the 50's, opening millions of letters each year and far more.

Nations have always been spying on each other and on their people, I am not saying that this is right, and that it's justified in every case but it's the reality we've been living in since the middle of the 20th century if not during the entire recorded history.

But sure keep thinking that posting every document including ones that deal with operational aspects of the programme is justified. Next time when the EU decided to duke it out with Russia over the gas piplines and trade agreements it might find it self on the receiving end of such programmes far more hostile than the NSA tapping a Belgium ISP.

P.S. H/N Don't forget to bury this comment with down votes too since well screw the content rules, your political opinions and narrow world views are under attack.

P.S. 2.0

Just for the kick of it according to data from the ERA(European Railroad Agency) the total number of deaths in train accidents from 2000 is 319, number of people who died in terrorist attacks in during the same period in Europe is 338+(stopped counting once I've got pass 319..). Please note that this isn't the number of EU citizens who died in terror attacks(which is several times greater), but the number of casualties for attacks on European soil. Of course if you count the Madrid train bombings as a train accident you are welcomed to subtract 191 people of that list and add it to your get hit by a train statistic.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#88

Post by tintwash » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:44 PM UTC

Afforess wrote: post #20

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

Sapir-Whorf and Newspeak. What does "security" mean?

I have no doubt that the NSA's job is "national security" and that some portion of that work serves the people. Nobody knows what that portion is, by design.

If you bury the difficult, complicated issues under terms like "security", "threat to the country", and "bad guys", you're basically just supporting the NSA on faith.

Forget the terminology and FUD of "threats", and let's ask ourselves what the concrete benefit to the people of the United States (or better yet, the world) is for the NSA to be arming themselves for the destruction of computer systems. Is the benefit Cold Waresque deterrence through keeping the rest of the world in fear? Is this the strategy we want our work and taxes to support?

Maybe it's too complicated to think about, and even if we wanted to critically analyse the situation, secrecy prevents us from knowing anything besides what the government desires the people to know. It's easier to just trust in benevolent "national security" protecting us from Eastasia. Let's not forget that the world does have bad guys, and besides, we've always been at war with Eastasia.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#89

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:47 PM UTC

jallmann wrote: post #29

TheOsiris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

Others have said as much. Here is a quote from William Binney, another NSA whistleblower, on advice that he has for Snowden: > I would tell him to steer away from anything that isn't a public service — like talking about the ability of the U.S. government to hack into other countries or other people is not a public service. So that's kind of compromising capabilities and sources and methods, basically. That's getting…

The US public has a legitimate interest in knowing about NSA's hacking abilities, because vulnerabilities used by the NSA abroad can just as easily be used domestically by foreign or criminal attackers.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#90

Post by markvdb » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:47 PM UTC

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Are you a US citizen? How would you react if supposedly close US allies were bugging the White House, the US senate and AT&T? Repeatedly? Five Eyes, Echelon, Merkel, Belgacom, ...