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New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

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Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#41

Post by jallmann »

sroerick wrote: post #31
fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Do you believe that NSA should be conducting economic espionage? There is a clear need for defense. But because of lack of oversight, NSA has overstepped its bounds in both foreign and domestic spheres. The other side of this argument, one made cogently by Snowden, is that we simply have more to lose by escalating the cyberwar.

Having offensive capabilities and actually utilizing such capabilities are two different things. You can acknowledge the need for the former alongside the dangers of the latter, just as you would with any standing military.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#42

Post by vorg »

TheOsiris wrote: post #26
Afforess wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

> if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest

It's also important the public realize the NSA is more than just the National Stalking Agency.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#43

Post by [deleted] »

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

[deleted]

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#44

Post by CamperBob2 »

Afforess wrote: post #20
fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain.

Not so much Blofeld as Klingon: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2421112/NSA-director...

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#45

Post by dogma1138 »

askmike wrote: post #35
benstein wrote: post #10

How is this whistleblowing? What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge?

The NSA behaves very hostile against everyone not from the US. As an EU resident I think it is very important to have an idea on the lines the NSA is crossing to protect US citizens that might put me at risk.

But that puts it under espionage not "whistleblowing", we don't call a N. Korean scientist that defected to the west who spills light on N. Korea's nuclear program a whistleblower, we call him a defector and a spy.

Intelligence Agencies act on the behalf of their respective nations, there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa.

As we already know the extent of the collection programmes the NSA operates i really do not see any real value in spewing more and more content about it, especially things that start to touch on the operational know-how of such programmes.

As much as we don't like the Americans spying on us there are far worse nations out there that i would actually fear if they will ever gain even a shred of the capabilities the NSA and some other western allied nations have.

Sadly this incident will be a very bad thing to whistleblowing in the long run, good luck passing any whistleblowing protection laws in the US (and many other countries including in the EU who took notice) any time soon.

While i do respect the sentiment behind Snowden's leak, I do actually have a bone to pick with how it was executed. There were NSA leakers before him, there will hopefully be some after him that will speak out when a line is crossed. However grabbing which ever documents you can put your hands on, and then seeking shelter in what is now a defacto hostile state isn't really responsible behavior.

Just few years before Snowden we already had an NSA leak from which the "secret interpretation of the FISA act" fiasco was made public. Snowden could've made the same effective impact with a handful of slides, not 1000's of documents (if not more, some numbers which were flying in the early days of the leak pointed at anywhere between 50 and 250 thousands documents) of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#46

Post by pa7ch »

krapp wrote: post #36
pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

You're probably right. No need to consider the arguments made by people who don't agree entirely with a particular point of view, or even discuss it at all. They're obviously just shills. Edit: Much of the 'pro NSA' comments I see here seem merely to suggest that not everything the NSA does is evil, and not every disclosure is necessarily useful. As often happens in threads like these, any such comments are dismissed…

In the interest of facilitating a open and fair discussion on the larger issue of state surveillance, I highly recommend checking out the 2014 Munk debates: http://www.munkdebates.com/debates/state-surveillance

General Hayden and Glenn Greenwald are given fair time to discuss the issue and to give rebuttals to each other.

Its much more informative then trying to parse HN comments to form an opinion about state surveillance. It also forces you to consider the views of people who don't agree with you.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#47

Post by angersock »

TheOsiris wrote: post #26
Afforess wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

Have you considered that the public interest and the national interest are not one and the same?

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#48

Post by throwaway349823 »

jallmann wrote: post #41
sroerick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that NSA should be conducting economic espionage? There is a clear need for defense. But because of lack of oversight, NSA has overstepped its bounds in both foreign and domestic spheres. The other side of this argument, one made cogently by Snowden, is that we simply have more to lose by escalating the cyberwar.

Having offensive capabilities and actually utilizing such capabilities are two different things. You can acknowledge the need for the former alongside the dangers of the latter, just as you would with any standing military.

I don't really see how that fits into this scenario. Computer Security is more like chemical warfare. Were you can either do research or try to make everyone more secure by international treaties. Here you can either undermine encryption, infiltrate networks, keep exploits to yourself or you can make everyone secure by patches, standards and encryption that works.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#49

Post by sroerick »

jallmann wrote: post #41
sroerick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that NSA should be conducting economic espionage? There is a clear need for defense. But because of lack of oversight, NSA has overstepped its bounds in both foreign and domestic spheres. The other side of this argument, one made cogently by Snowden, is that we simply have more to lose by escalating the cyberwar.

Having offensive capabilities and actually utilizing such capabilities are two different things. You can acknowledge the need for the former alongside the dangers of the latter, just as you would with any standing military.

Mr Obama just sided with Mr Cameron on the issue of forcing companies to backdoor their products.

Do you believe that backdooring American products will have a positive effect on security?

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#50

Post by [deleted] »

pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

[deleted]
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