New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle • Hacker News Board

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#171

Post by xnull1guest » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:21 AM UTC

Rapzid wrote: post #166

xnull2guest wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama, the European World, will be contests between inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be u…

It's kinda odd that our politicians in the past used to be, for lack of better words, poets. I have often wondered about this and wondered what has happened.

This is sort of off topic, but it is amusing.

I would guess that it is a combination of:

- A deemphasis of poetry and literary studies in the concept of being educated and cultured

- The rise of writing staff and PR professionals in the practice of engaging with the public

- The relative lack of importance writing has today compared to newer picture and video delivery (media is message, etc)

- Inherited nostalgia for forms associated with 'classic' art styles

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#172

Post by thefreeman » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:26 AM UTC

The NSA should just leak documents showing all of the other governments doing this stuff so we can move on from the Anti US/UK circle jerk. Seriously if you think your government hasn't invested serious time and money in digital subterfuge you are living in a dream world and need to wake up.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#173

Post by srj » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:29 AM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #107

pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

There is absolutely no reason for the NSA to give a flying fuck about what you or I think. There just isn't, and it'd be a waste of resources to even attempt something like this. People do exist (I am one of them) who think the NSA is doing a nasty job that isn't very appealing, but is absolutely necessary for me to be able to sleep in my bed at night safely. They may not have the best guidance from the government, b…

Which NSA activities have been necessary for you to sleep in safety?

And as to the 'nasty unappealing job', what has led you to believe that is a common perspective among those who work there? The project detailings that have been released often seem downright giddy.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#174

Post by whoopdedo » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

MisterWebz wrote: post #139

whoopdedo wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were being paid to influence a debate, especially being paid by the U.S. Government, the first thing I do is lots and lots of research. The easiest way to discredit someone is to point out technical ignorance in their argument. So I'd make my point technically sound on all points. I'd research the counter-argument so I have rebuttals to every knee-jerk response the amateurs on the internet will toss at me. I'd r…

So if you were operating 50 accounts to try to influence the debate you'd be posting 50 informative and persuasive comments? I doubt it, that would take way too much time. If I were an NSA shill I'd just mention something about Snowden harming the US or Snowden being a spy. It's a controversial and dumb argument so it's going to get a decent amount of replies. It also doesn't take much effort. You'd derail the conver…

You only have to write the argument once. Then use the social media management software that's being peddled to tweak the wording slightly so you have prepared text stating the same thing 50 different ways. Then if someone gives a counter-argument that you have a prepared response for, you can copy-paste that in a matter of seconds. Arguments you haven't prepared for are ignored because the goal isn't to engage in dialog, it's to give the false impression that a dialog is occurring. To an outside observer the forum would appear to be populated equally by people for and against the topic. Even though it's really an overwhelming support for one side and a single agent spamming with 50 different personalities.

Derailing a conversation works well because they will have a large number of responses prepared that talk about, using your example, Snowden being a traitor. So once they've wedged the issue their spam can become the dominant voice. If the discussion had drifted to an area they weren't prepared for, say the historical precedents for whistleblowers of government misdeeds, they probably don't have as much material for that.

My point is I assume astroturfed material would not be written off-the-cuff but meticulously edited ahead of time to give the desired impression. And near the top of that list must be the requirement that it not look like an obvious shill.

I wonder how effective it would be if agents were able to control both sides of the debate, even? A more sophisticated shill would give the appearance of supporting the opposition but will subtly help draw attention to the propaganda. A living straw man, as it were. Not unlike the way SWAT police will pretend to be violent protesters to goad troublemakers into doing something they can be arrested for.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#175

Post by krapp » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:40 AM UTC

RottenHuman wrote: post #165

krapp wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a problem with the 'likely' part, because that's where the 'paranoid' comes into play. What evidence is there that it's likely, other than paranoia?

If you were to be assigned to astroturf certain demographics, what better target than HN would you chose to reach tech-professionals?

That's a fair point, but as evidence of likelihood, it's still kind of weak. The US government might post here. But then again, so do communists and anarchists and libertarian capitalists and what have you. It's not as if HN is awash in pro-US, pro security sentiment anyway.

It seems to me as if the purpose of bringing it up is to warn people that any opinion they encounter of a certain kind can't be trusted, because it's probably part of a coordinated campaign of government manipulation. That's a couple of steps away from calling it thoughtcrime.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#176

Post by alextgordon » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:44 AM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #161

alextgordon wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the US is doing is extraordinary, mainly because it is the only country with the resources to run the operation that it's running, but also because everybody seems to be infected with fear. If we were talking about Georgia, or Israel, or Ukraine, or Japan, I would understand the fear. But the USA has no enemies, there are no threats. It's a tragic case of paranoia.

But the USA has no enemies, there are no threats. I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.

I'd be interested to know who you think is a threat!

The US has two borders. One with Canada, one with Mexico. Neither of these countries are likely to invade.

The US has the largest naval force in the world. I believe the Coastguard is also the 13th largest. Again, nothing to fear.

Of the countries that are "enemies", most would quite like to improve relations, for instance Cuba and Iran. Iran in particular has extended many an olive branch over the decades.

The US keeps these countries around as notional enemies, in part because of political incompetence, and in part because of a lack of incentive to fix things. Who wants to be the President who made friends with an "Islamic Republic"?

Either way, it's hard to see what particular danger the US is in.

Compare this to any of the countries I mentioned, which are much less defended, and have active disputes with neighbouring countries.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#177

Post by higherpurpose » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:45 AM UTC

yourad_io wrote: post #108

zmanian wrote: post #56

There are a number of objectionable elements to the NSA foreign operations. - Mass surveillance of all humans is objectionable on human rights terms. - Attacks on civilian infrastructure. The NSA is executing military operations against civilian infrastructure even in NATO countries. It isn't conventional foreign policy or warfare for a military agency to be actively and continuously attack the civilian cultural and…

Attacking the economic infrastructure in preparation of War has been the US' m.o. since at least the 50's. Economic Hitmen, and what-not.

Of all countries? I doubt that. Many people don't seem to realize the scope is the main problem here, and they are equating spying on one person in targetted surveillance, with spying on 4 billion people and saying "NSA has already been doing that!". No they haven't. So stop confusing the message.

Another big problem is that NSA has started undermining crypto. Before 2001 you could maybe actually trust NSA that they're releasing crypto that is safe because you thought they actually have an interest in "security". Not anymore. Anything and everything NSA has touched now has to be considered corrupt.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#178

Post by higherpurpose » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:49 AM UTC

srj wrote: post #164

diminoten wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no political stick for them to be on, because every decision-maker in the US government knows how important the NSA is.

Where's your evidence for that? The hearings in congress I think have shown that there are doubts from decision-makers.

Also almost half of the House tried to pass a bill to cut NSA's funding in 2013.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#179

Post by edwinyzh » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:50 AM UTC

tacoman wrote: post #168

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #86

Here's a story for you. I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who has done anything wrong. I don't even mean that in the sense of "I pissed off the wrong people but technically haven't been charged." I mean that I am a vanilla, average, 9-5 working man of no interest to anybody. My geographical location is an accident of my…

I read this post a dozen times. As a sysadmin for a sizable ISP in a non-US/UK country, the Belgacom story has haunted me. Is this the first time you've talked about it?

FWIW, this is my first time reading this. Some stories worth spreading.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#180

Post by dogma1138 » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 5:34 AM UTC

moe wrote: post #159

dogma1138 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do terrorists have to do with anything? Nation states are far more likely to launch a cyber attack against the EU than a terrorist organisation. And since when mass surveillance is a new thing? The US, some European allies, Russia and any other capable country were conducting mass surveillance since pretty much WW2 if not earlier. Tapping phone lines including the transatlantic phone cables since the 50's, openi…

And since when mass surveillance is a new thing? [...] Countries were conducting mass surveillance since pretty much WW2 Since when are nukes a new thing? Countries have been going to war for centuries! Can you see how absurd a notion that is? The NSA will soon be able to record every move you make and every word you speak or write during your lifetime, in realtime. Not much later it will be able to do this for entir…

"The second report (rapport complÈmentaire d'activitÈs 1999) deals with the ECHELON system in much greater detail. It gives a view on the STOA study and devotes one section to explaining the technical and legal background to telecommunications monitoring. It concludes that ECHELON does in fact exist and is also in a position to listen in to all information carried by satellite."

"According to a former employee, NSA had by 1995 installed "sniffer" software to collect such traffic at nine major Internet exchange points (IXPs). The first two such sites identified, FIX East and FIX West, are operated by US government agencies. They are closely linked to nearby commercial locations, MAE East and MAE West (see table). Three other sites listed were Network Access Points originally developed by the US National Science Foundation to provide the US Internet with its initial "backbone"."

"...leading US Internet and telecommunications company had contracted with NSA to develop software to capture Internet data of interest, and that deals had been struck with the leading manufacturers Microsoft, Lotus, and Netscape to alter their products for foreign use. The latter allegation has proven correct (see technical annexe). Providing such features would make little sense unless NSA had also arranged general access to Internet traffic."

This is from the EU Parliamentary reports compiled in the mid to late 90's. You can find that and much more in the EU online library under "Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System" and the SOTA reports...

Again not saying it's OK, but FFS this has been going on for a LONG LONG time, people really need to get some perspective and focus on what actually matters. The NSA won't stop "spying" it's what they are for, who and how actively they are doing it should be the main issue here.

On the PS part, well duh, the numbers are completely irrelevant it as was the arbitrary statistic about being in a train accidents vs terrorism. Bring up a dumb point get a dumber reprisal...