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New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

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Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#111

Post by matt4077 »

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

This was the British GCHQ. They were spying on non-Europeans using their roaming networks, including US citizens.

If you think there's some sort of restraint with regards to citizens of other 'five eyes' nations, I wonder how you square that with the "but everyone spies on everyone, including allies" argument that can always be found in these threads.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#112

Post by TheOsiris »

eloy wrote: post #73
TheOsiris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

Do you realize that Snowden never leaked single documents? He just delivered over 100,000 of documents to Glenn Greenwald last year, and he published them continuously over a long time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they said some time ago that only 1% was published. So it would be impossible for Snowden himself to read everything and choose if it should be published.

as you said, he leaked 100k documents to Glenn Greenwald. My point is that it was his responsibility to vet them himself and not rely on Glenn and whoever Glenn chooses.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#113

Post by TheOsiris »

vorg wrote: post #42
TheOsiris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

> if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest It's also important the public realize the NSA is more than just the National Stalking Agency.

I think with the domestic surveillance revelations that became abundantly clear.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#114

Post by alecco »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #86

Here's a story for you. I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who has done anything wrong. I don't even mean that in the sense of "I pissed off the wrong people but technically haven't been charged." I mean that I am a vanilla, average, 9-5 working man of no interest to anybody. My geographical location is an accident of my…

Indeed, Obama and US congress made it clear we foreign people are just fair game for targeting. At least I'm lucky not to live in a country where targeted assassinations are going on.

Also, it's pretty obvious terrorism is an excuse. The main reason is power and control. Corporate espionage and controlling US-unfriendly political movements is very likely the main goal.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#115

Post by squozzer »

I won't pretend to know what's going on here or its implications. So far humanity has lucked out considering our capacity for building some pretty nasty weaponry. We'll probably go through a series of cyberwars before we come to our senses.

I don't blame the NSA for trying to be ready to fight a cyberwar. Other nations probably wouldn't stop their programs even if the US did. Our culture isn't the only one infected with a sense of Manifest Destiny.

Where we might consider drawing the line begins with necessity. Deciding which actions are necessary and which are gratuitous might prove difficult, assuming we even know, which is why I find it hard to fault Snowden for leaking this information.

As fearsome as the NSA sounds, certainly they have some limits. For instance, why don't they just clean out everyone's bank accounts? Might pay their bills for a few days anyway. But why haven't they gone after certain criminals? Many shady operations keep their money in jurisdictions that probably can't compete with our cyberwar capabilities. Maybe these operations enjoy the protection of a powerful entity but probably not all of them do. And probably many operations still use cash and couriers but the US and others seem to have gotten better at tracking movements of people so it's doubtful such tactics will remain viable forever.

Maybe in the end we have to somehow conquer the notion of distrust. Not sure how it can be done except through telepathy and even then the transition to a telepathic society will probably be full of misery.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#116

Post by AndrewKemendo »

krapp wrote: post #83
elwin wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try looking at the comments from a different angle. Instead of grouping them into "pro-NSA" and "anti-NSA" categories, try checking for technical ignorance. Look for ideas about cyberwarfare based on bad analogies with real warfare. Look for a mindset that puts winning an arms race first and never considers ethical implications. Look for vague statements about protecting or harming America that don't explain whether…

To be fair, I doubt many people (including myself) with an opinion either way actually know what they're talking about. The expert pool for knowledge about high-level classified government hacking is probably pretty small, even on Hacker News. It's politics, and politics hits people in the lizard brain and short-circuits their ability to think rationally.

You might be surprised. Regardless, none of them will ever post anything relevant on the topics in discussion.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#117

Post by bhouston »

Animats wrote: post #25

Everything at the lowest levels needs to be tightened up now. Buffer overflows in trusted code have to go. This means getting rid of the languages with buffer overflow problems. Mostly C and C++. Fortunately we have Go and Rust, plus all the semi-interpreted languages, now, and can do it. We need something that runs Docker-like containers and, all the way down the bare metal, has no unsafe code. We need dumber server…

One problem with most "interpreted languages" you cite as preferable is that they rely on C/C++ run-times for now. This means these languages are only as safe as the underlying C/C++ run-times and the core libraries they rely upon (glibc and the like.)

We need to start to think of replacing underlying runtimes and core libraries with Rust and Go-based alternatives (or similar) to make them safer. Ultra-large goal and probably impossible in the near term, but it should be done.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#118

Post by pekk »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #86

Here's a story for you. I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who has done anything wrong. I don't even mean that in the sense of "I pissed off the wrong people but technically haven't been charged." I mean that I am a vanilla, average, 9-5 working man of no interest to anybody. My geographical location is an accident of my…

What do you think that nation-states do?

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#119

Post by xnull2guest »

jakeogh wrote: post #100

The premise that we need "beneolvient power" to "protect us" from "evil doers" is the oldest trick in the book. If there is no threat, one will be generated. Almost organically, it does not even take overt orginization. The players know cui bono.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama, the European World, will be contests between inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. - John Quincy Adams

It was until recently (the early 1900s) that the policy of the United States to stay entirely out of any foreign affairs other than her own. It was acknowledged that America could spread her virtues and values by being the paragon example of them as inspiration to others to follow suit.

Today she holds the opposite view - that it is her unquestioned duty and obligation to interfere everywhere with the justification and rationalization that she seeks justice - and that discarding some of these principles for her own people is necessary for this noble mission.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#120

Post by task_queue »

diminoten wrote: post #107
pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

There is absolutely no reason for the NSA to give a flying fuck about what you or I think. There just isn't, and it'd be a waste of resources to even attempt something like this. People do exist (I am one of them) who think the NSA is doing a nasty job that isn't very appealing, but is absolutely necessary for me to be able to sleep in my bed at night safely. They may not have the best guidance from the government, b…

I agree that it's best to assume earnestness in opinions, I disagree with your opening. There absolutely is a reason for the NSA to give a fuck what you or I think. They are an intelligence and security agency, operating covertly with plausible deniability is what they do. More importantly, there are laws trying to be passed that can strengthen or weaken their funding and power. Making people at home feel that the agency needs to keep up the good work is not a waste of funds to that end.

They just got caught with their pants down spying on the American people. If they don't try to take hold of the narrative they might see themselves at the shit end of the political stick.

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