What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me • Hacker News Board

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#331

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 11:23 PM UTC

zadroz90 wrote: post #313

ANTSANTS wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful…

Two things: 1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense. 2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be suc…

>Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women.

OR unless you're reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

http://theglorioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/jojos-bizar... -- pictured: some kinda Aztec vampire thingy eating some poor soul

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#332

Post by Torgo » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 11:24 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #117

edwinjm wrote: post #92

I looked in this online Belgian strip store and for the Dutch language market (quite small demographic), I could find 5 (five) titles for girls! And I'm pretty sure there's more (Noortje, Tina...) http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-mooie-navels-bestelle... http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-girlz-bestellen.asp http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-kathys-kat-bestellen.... http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhal…

How did you search? I just searched for "Yoko Tsuno" on that site and they seem to be available.

Yoko Tsuno comics are really great, by the way. It's disappointing that Franco-Belgian and Italian comics never get full runs in English.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#333

Post by ANTSANTS » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 11:46 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #331

zadroz90 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things: 1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense. 2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be suc…

>Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women. OR unless you're reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure . http://theglorioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/jojos-bizar... -- pictured: some kinda Aztec vampire thingy eating some poor soul

Damn, I really should have included JoJo as an example of straight male manga fans being totally cool with ludicrously flamboyant male characters.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121201210751/jjba/image...

http://animebot.everyboty.net/pix/2994.png

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#334

Post by ANTSANTS » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 11:55 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #329

ANTSANTS wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful…

Yes, of course the portrayal of men is oversexualized and problematic. Next question.

"Problematic?" Why is that? Straight women and gay men enjoying beefcake aren't hurting anyone.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#335

Post by saraid216 » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 12:00 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #184

It's no coincidence that Comic Books and Video Games have gone hand in hand. A long time ago there used to be quite a number of comics that targeted young kids, girls and people other than the 11-15 year old male demographic. There's also been lots of effort put into making games that will appeal to people outside of that demographic. You could say, numbers don't lie, that those titles weren't being sold in enough qu…

It's not about anatomical correctness. It's that the sexualization–of both the male superheroes and the female ones–is explicitly male-based. Female gaze sexualization looks different.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#336

Post by ScottBurson » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 12:18 AM UTC

ANTSANTS wrote: post #326

ScottBurson wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.

Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but the…

> The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem.

No, I think you're quite mistaken. Japanese culture is even more male-chauvinist than American culture. Gender roles, while loosening a little in recent years, are still extremely rigid. How long do you think it will be before Japan has a female Prime Minister? 50 years? 100?

The presentation of girls and women in fiction is part of the culture, both reflecting it and playing some role -- probably not small -- in perpetuating it. The relentless, unceasing portrayal of sexualized women characters sends the message that the value of women is in their sexuality -- not their intelligence, their emotional perceptiveness, their leadership qualities, or any of hundreds of other positive attributes I could name and that women, like men, possess in varying degrees. That drumbeat -- inescapably present in American culture as well as Japanese -- is heard clearly by both girls and boys, and shapes their attitudes about gender roles.

I'm not trying to play cultural superiority here. Most cultures on this planet have a problem in this area, and the US is no shining exemplar. But holding Japan up as having particularly healthy gender psychology is rather naïve.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#337

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 12:19 AM UTC

rprospero wrote: post #38

po wrote: post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

I know exactly how you feel. For the past year, my main gaming rig has been on another continent and I've been making do with what I could play on a cruddy little netbook running Linux. It's probably been my best year of gaming ever. I've been an old west robot prospector. I've seen a man have sex with a giant goldfish. I've tried to get a mouse to wear a hat. I've consoled a grieving child. After all that was done,…

There's a graphic novel called "Fun Home" that ticks off 2 out of your 4 wish list items.

edit: and I just realised the author invented the Bechdel test, which is appropriate.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#338

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 12:32 AM UTC

cpncrunch wrote: post #316

Fomite wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the number of replies on HN and other sources that are essentially "Well I don't see it..." or "Not at my office..." rather than taking women at their word for their own experience.

The problem is that sometimes when sexism is claimed - such as at github - it turns out not to be sexism at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but when you have false positives like this, it makes you want to see some evidence.

[deleted]

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#339

Post by cauterized » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 12:51 AM UTC

ANTSANTS wrote: post #326

ScottBurson wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.

Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but the…

And there is such a thing as sexual objectification. If they're such strong characters, then wouldn't they still be as interesting and appealing if physically portrayed as small-chested and straight-waisted and wearing loose t-shirts and jeans?

The truth is that their character depictions are made rich IF doing so serves the story. But their physical portrayal serves no purpose except titillation. (And don't get me wrong, titillation has it's time and place and we could argue forever about whether its overwhelming prevalence in superhero comics is that place.) To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#340

Post by bane » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 1:01 AM UTC

coroxout wrote: post #318

bane wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the non-superhero comic books in the U.S. end up being adult themed for various reasons. Even many notable French artists are only known here for their work in magazines like Heavy Metal. One I grew up with (that I probably shouldn't have had as a child) was the Conan the Barbarian comics. Definitely not a superhero title, and definitely skewed towards the adult demographic. Asterix has tried to penetrate the…

I don't know about any previous attempts but Cinebook are working on Spirou et Fantasio in English - they're still ongoing but they're not in the original order (the 7 so far are 5 80s Tome & Janry titles followed by two Franquin 50s titles) so who knows how many they plan to do. http://www.cinebook.co.uk/index.php?cPath=182 It's a British English translation but I think any UK/US differences will be fairly small com…

Fantastic! I'll have to seek these out.

I almost keep wanting to take some time to learn some basic French so I can read French comics. (I know it sounds kind of trite, but whatever motivates I suppose).

I was surprised the first time I went to France, I was more or less able to make out the gist of the majority of the Museum placards and explanations when there wasn't an English translation available. Common ancestor, French influence, Latin and all that.