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What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

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Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#321

Post by mcguire »

chasing wrote: post #246
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we've had a history of censorship and its been historically horrible. This is just a new Comics Code Authority Code. So yeah, we tried the liberal censorship (protect the $minority, $gender, $children) approach and its a massive failure because TOP DOWN CONTROL OF CULTURE IS HARMFUL. Instead lower barriers, give people choice, don't guilt them, open markets, etc. Let speech and art flourish. Political correctn…

Your over-reliance on political straw men ("left-leaning types," "social justice warriors," "liberal censorship") might turn people off to your actual ideas.

It did me. The term "social justice warrior", like "nation-state", serves primarily as a flag-term that tells me I can stop listening.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#322

Post by surge »

Fomite wrote: post #283
scott_s wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point: his daughter knows those characters through pop culture. She wants to read those comics. But the art for those comics is clearly telling her: you are not our audience. And this is most of the store. The male characters are male power fantasies, and appeal to his son. But the female characters are not female power fantasies, meant to appeal to women. They are male idealized-woman fant…

Exactly. Men in comics are male power fantasies. Women in comics are also male fantasies. The message that these kinds of covers send to his daughter, or women in general is "This is not for you".

Welp. That's cause it's not. She would not be their target audience anymore then Grand Theft Auto is.

They have other comics for her: http://www.kidscomics.com/Home/1/1/60/1046

Breaking Bad is also pop culture, the problem comes in when Lego makes Lego Breaking Bad figures, then your daughter wants to watch the show.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#323

Post by surge »

cauterized wrote: post #159
xienze wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for the past 10 to 20 years kids have been reading comics less and less because they have TV and the Internet. Kids don't even go outside as much as they used to. Things change, and the comic book companies are adapting as best they can.

Kids have had TV for 60 years.

Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon not so much.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#324

Post by ScottBurson »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #285
ANTSANTS wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about gi…

This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point. I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are…

I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#325

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vertex-four wrote: post #95

For those who honestly believe that women will never want to read comics - look into webcomics. A huge proportion of the reader base for a good, PG-13(-ish) webcomic will likely be female, and there's a number of webcomics that are targeted towards women. A number of these comics will eventually be printed and sold, usually via the Internet, sometimes at conventions. I went to the Thoughtbubble Comic Convention last…

Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/) also has a large number of strong female characters. It's a comic space opera.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#326

Post by ANTSANTS »

ScottBurson wrote: post #324
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point. I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are…

I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.

Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but they are still characters with their own personalities, motives, agency, strengths, weaknesses, struggles, and stories. The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem.

If you have problems with your elementary school aged kids seeing sexualized images of women, maybe you shouldn't be buying them comic books about Batman beating criminals into pulps either.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#327

Post by cauterized »

surge wrote: post #323
cauterized wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids have had TV for 60 years.

Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon not so much.

Nickelodeon's been around for 30. Cartoons or family oriented shows at all times when kids aren't in school, since the 1950s.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#328

Post by mcguire »

talmand wrote: post #296
rytis wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why killing needs to be presented as a game? You want to teach children about life and death? Get then to a slaughterhouse. No? Why not? It's just teaching them about life and death...

Well, considering many children learn to kill and dress game early in life; I don't see a problem with that. Depends on the child and the parent. But I appreciate you trying to show my point is invalid by trying to get me to disagree with a completely different example.

"But I appreciate you trying to show my point is invalid by trying to get me to disagree with a completely different example."

And I liked how you substituted a completely different meaning of "game".

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#329

Post by eli_gottlieb »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #306
killertypo wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something. It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks. I get that they are comics, but a story…

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful…

Yes, of course the portrayal of men is oversexualized and problematic. Next question.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#330

Post by killertypo »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #306
killertypo wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something. It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks. I get that they are comics, but a story…

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful…

the portrayal of men is just as dumb and unrealistic. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy comics quite a bit (Infinity Guantlet anyone? Planet Hulk? World War Hulk???)

I think hyper sexualization of any gender is stupid and serves more as softcore porn than anything.

It is just slightly more offensive to women who spent a long time in our history being told "Well maybe you shouldn't have worn that dress and he wouldn't have hit on you the way he did."

BUT HEY before this gets out of hand, it is equally as degrading as putting down a man for "Well if your wife hits you and you just take it, your a little b()."

There has to be some give and take on this issue, it is not so clearly black and white.

I'm a big enough adult to recognize it's just stupid to think I can change comics and how they are drawn. Maybe if there were a bit more selection for my daughter so she could ease her way into it though? That would be pretty cool.

We're talking about creating a business out of an existing business.

Not getting rid of what we have, at some point you have to accept the reality of the world we live in. I don't want to strike down comic books, but it would be cool if they had a bigger selection for my kids (who would love to enjoy what daddy is reading, but they can wait until they're more mentally/emotionally/physically developed before being exposed).

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