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Italia Startup Visa

italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it

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Re: Italia Startup Visa

#191

Post by tiatia »

gruturo wrote: post #11

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or unavailable infrastructure in the hand of mon…

"We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it." You don't have the best army.

Do you know the thinnest book in the world? Italian heroes...

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#192

Post by Morgawr »

EliRivers wrote: post #172
Morgawr wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really need to take the time to learn and appreciate the food culture in Italy, oddly we have a very diverse and broad/spread culture all over the country. I personally don't enjoy Neapolitan cuisine that much but even that it's to say very little, you can literally travel a few km away from a city and find completely different food and cuisine. If you get bored of eating stuff in Naples, that's because you are o…

Half of what you gave as an example there is pasta, or something that goes on pasta.

Calling tortellini or lasagne "pasta" is like calling balsamic vinegar "vinegar".

The fact that you still lump pasta all together after living in Italy for some time tells me you did not have the time to experience all the variety and quirks of different types of pasta. Again, I'm very biased but there's more than just "pasta" in a pasta-based cuisine, surprising as it sounds.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#193

Post by fauigerzigerk »

thinkindie wrote: post #180
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing facts is the best way of debunking sterotypes though. In your statement, I see only patriotism, which isn't very convincing. Maybe you could start by explaining why Italy comes 56th (between Turkey and Belarus) in the ease of doing business rankings: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings I know all rankings can be criticised, but this one confirms everything I have read about things like rule of law and red…

the very same ranking ranks Italy better than Luxembourg where almost all the American large companies have their European HQ. It also ranks Malaysia better than Switzerland. Oh, please.

As I said, all rankings are flawed, but if you drill down into the individual factors you'll find out some of the reasons for any surprising results.

Luxemburg is part of a giant tax evasion scheme. That's the only reason why some multi-nationals are doing business there. They don't need "ease of doing business" like a startup does.

I really don't know nearly enough about Malaysia to compare it to Switzerland. Apparently you do.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#194

Post by happyscrappy »

camillomiller wrote: post #190
happyscrappy wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "shoulder covered" mean?

Yeah sorry, that's some Italian crawling through my English. It means "having a parachute" or maybe even "having your back covered". In other words, moving from a safe economical ground where you can easily return just in case anything goes wrong. Practically it means having rich parents or a stable financial situation because of your family's wealth.

Thanks.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#195

Post by talete »

well it depends what are you working on. It's not a complete hell but it's true Italy is not so business friendly as it pretends to be, especially when it comes to bureaucracy, laws, services. Things are changing, true, and the situation is far better than it was just 3 years ago. The truth: still a lot has to be done yet. But you may find lots of talented developers, skilled people, educated scientists and here living costs and salaries are cheaper than in other countries. In Milan and other cities in the north some local ecosystems are arising. Think of your business, of your target customers, of your needs. Then it might be worth a try. Just do not expect any help by the government or public administration. Source: I am italian, and I live in Milan, I am both a consultant helping small businesses and entrepreneur.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#196

Post by gruturo »

mystixx wrote: post #109
gruturo wrote: post #11

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or unavailable infrastructure in the hand of mon…

I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of the people that…

I'll be fully honest with you:

I considered staying. I considered doing exactly what you say: staying, working against the current, trying to change things. And then I decided not to.

Why?

Because I fully believe that Italy is doomed beyond any attempt to fix it. You should cut away pretty much 90% of the people holding any position of power in any public office. Trouble is, you can't do it by force. You must do it legally. Legally means asking them - they occupy the very same public office positions who would rule on this. Would they agree to it?

And with whom would you replace them?

The "new" guys, the fresh blood, very quickly adjust to the state of things - otherwise their career prospects (and in some extreme cases life expectancy) are cut sharply.

I really, really believe it can't be saved and therefore made a rational decision to leave and never look back.

It's a battle that can't be won, I decided not to fight it.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#197

Post by gruturo »

EvaK_de wrote: post #111
svzdvd wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple: because if you live here, you have to pay taxes here. A lot of taxes. And the Italian equivalent of IRS can just come to you and say that you don't pay enough, you're presumed guilty and you'll have to accept to pay a fine or try to prove you're innocent in court (which could take years).

Is this an older regulation or is it the result of Italy being more and more pressured by the EU to fix their household in recent years?

It's a result of rampant corruption.

The government pretty much accepts that certain categories (say, dentists) hide a lot of their profits. Instead of fixing this, they decided to just assume you are hiding ~60% of what you declare and tax you accordingly.

A few years later they decided to just create a table of what each professional from each category should earn and if you declare less than that you can expect an extremely unpleasant visit which WILL find something wrong with your business.

Law-abiding people get crushed under this weight, while tax evaders just declare even less (or even operate completely outside of the law). Good people get punished, bad people don't. Going to the authorities to report these people can be successful, or unsuccessful, or frustrating, or very unhealthy. Feel like gambling?

After 10 years of this you start wondering if you're the idiot. You can become one of the "furbi", or keep trying to work in this broken framework, or leave.

I left.

Oh and the tax code is so byzantine you need to pay a professional even if you have an extremely small and simple business. And even they make mistakes. And you get to pay for those mistakes.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#198

Post by DaniFong »

svzdvd wrote: post #65
DaniFong wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it." Hmm. Why not go there, write some code for the broader world, start the business somewhere else?

It's simple: because if you live here, you have to pay taxes here. A lot of taxes. And the Italian equivalent of IRS can just come to you and say that you don't pay enough, you're presumed guilty and you'll have to accept to pay a fine or try to prove you're innocent in court (which could take years).

Ok, thanks. Crazy.

You all should just reform the Holy Roman Empire... ;-)

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#199

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #179
mystixx wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of the people that…

> I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. Exactly. And that's why everybody is advising not to start a business there. Do you want extra challenges when you are doing something that is not easy already? Probably you think there is something "heroic" in it, but that's not the case for everybody. I am an iOS developer. I left a country where I had a job I didn't like (not in iOS, but on Micr…

50% taxes for people earning less than 15000€/year ? Yes is a challenge... to survive.

I tried, I said "I'll stay here, I'll pay taxes, make money and resurrect this country", so they added +10% taxes, reduced the "low income reduction" from people earning 30 000/year (gross) to 15000/year (gross), increased the "retirement fund" costs from 24% to 29% (and will increase up to 33.7% in 3 years they said) so I ended up, in one year, from paying ~30% taxes (plus accountant, required in Italy), to ~45%, increasing to 49% in 3 years.

And NO ONE said here the worst part. I can't believe no one mentioned.

The first year you work (not employed), you have to pay taxes for the first year and THE YEAR AFTER, yes, you have understood it: 90% taxes first year, plus accountant.

Good bye, my beloved country. There are a lot of smart people, but I have no idea how to survive there.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#200

Post by rabidonrails »

balsamiq wrote: post #45
rabidonrails wrote: post #3

If I remember correctly, Peldi Guilizzoni (Balsamiq) highly discourages against starting a company in Italy. Something about how taxes are collected...

I do? I don't remember saying that. I don't really want to get into this debate, but I've been running Balsamiq from Italy since 2008, and it's been just fine. Then again, YMMV...we're just a little mom-and-pop software shop, not a "startup" in the paulg sense of the word.

I think it was related to Italy prematurely collecting the coming years' taxes.

I've watched and read so much of your stuff I can't even find which one it was in.

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