Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone • Hacker News Board

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#31

Post by randallsquared » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:06 PM UTC

xrange wrote: post #28

jessep wrote: post #6

Reading this, I felt real anger at our society. I have 1 year old twin girls and I am genuinely scared and saddened by the limitations that paranoid adults are going to put on us as parents, and them as children. We live in a world driven by fear detached from the real risks and joys of life.

>Reading this, I felt real anger at our society. I think everybody feels this way. I have a hard time imagining that anything but the vast majority of parents would agree. So that makes we wonder if there is some agenda behind this? A gas lighting effect maybe? People would say "well things may not be ideal where I live, but at least it is not like over there ", and so they are less likely to act to change things loc…

> I think everybody feels this way. I have a hard time imagining that anything but the vast majority of parents would agree.

I think this is typical mind fallacy.

Most parents, especially in these days of tiny family sizes, are probably more heavily protective than parents used to be.

I was ten in 1983, and for most of my childhood my only present parent was of the same age as most of my peers' grandparents (all of my siblings were boomers), and the difference in protectiveness was noticeable: I could stay out for hours at any time of the day or night when I was 13 and 14, except for times that were scheduled (school, church, and homework, basically). He wasn't surprised if he didn't see me for the entire weekend at that age.

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#32

Post by graeme » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:11 PM UTC

repsilat wrote: post #30

graeme wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always worth considering alternative hypotheses, but I don't think this one holds true. I've lived in dangerous places. North Americans take very few safety precautions. In general: * People aren't aware of their surroundings. Often have headphones. * People wave phones around in the air, hold them loosely, or leave them dangling out of back pockets. * People use public ATMs, in insecure locations, and don't pay…

I understood most of what you said, but I'm not sure about > * They carry no cash to hand over in the event of a mugging Can you elaborate on this point? I'd be surprised if thieves thought, "Jeez, nothing to steal from this one, I'd better at least stab them or I won't have done anything wrong..."

The idea is that the mugger is in a rush. They don't know if you really have nothing or whether you're lying. They might rough you up to get you to admit you have money. And once that happens, if you react defensively, they might get more violent.

The other possibility is that they might ask for your whole wallet/phone, etc. Whereas if you hand over some money they'll often take it and go. At least this is what Brazilians who had been mugged told me happens. Some carried a dummy phone to hand over as well.

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#33

Post by ocb » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #22

vilhelm_s wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps some of the increased safety comes from people being more afraid and therefore taking more precautions now? So it's not necessarily a contradiction. Edit: Also, I think some of the safety culture comes from diminishing returns. E.g., in the 1950s industrial workplace safety was extremely poor by modern standards. But the people who worked there had just been through world war II, so the risk must have seemed…

It's always worth considering alternative hypotheses, but I don't think this one holds true. I've lived in dangerous places. North Americans take very few safety precautions. In general: * People aren't aware of their surroundings. Often have headphones. * People wave phones around in the air, hold them loosely, or leave them dangling out of back pockets. * People use public ATMs, in insecure locations, and don't pay…

The idea of carrying cash to hand over if you get mugged being a safety precaution is funny to me. I never really thought about it that way. I always thought of not carrying cash as a way to lessen the risk of getting mugged, or at least lessen the loss if you were to get mugged (I'm an American).

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#34

Post by graeme » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #27

graeme wrote: post #5

How odd. America is much safer than it used to be, but people are more afraid. My father walked to and from school every day in Montreal when he was young, for a good half hour each way I believe. He'd go in a group with kids from the neighborhood, there were no adults. I walked to school every morning in Canada starting from age six, alone. I didn't live far from school, but if I had lived further I still would have…

I don't know whether I agree with your general sentiment or not. But maybe we should consider whether your response to this article is itself an illustration of the very phenomenon that leads us to perceive the world as more dangerous as it is. The usual account of why we live in such irrational fear is that nobody wants to hear about things going well, and everyone being safe and happy on the news. Anyone who watche…

To be clear, I don't think this kind of thing is common. But it's also not common to see children walking alone in America, at least in the parts I've been to.

It's the latter that's the problem. The former is merely a symptom of the latter, whether or not it is common.

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#35

Post by jrs235 » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

The perception is that CPS workers are egomaniacs that think they can't be wrong and many appear power hungry.

The sad part is for ever time CPS "sign and agree or we'll make your life hell and take your children" they end up screwing up and failing a child in real need.

Their mentality is similar to that perceived of police forces... "you might beat the rap but you can't beat the ride... now comply!" (regardless of whether they are in the right or not)

ADD: It would seem that CPS focuses on making hell for parents who challenge them instead of focusing on protecting children. They'll invest more time and energy in showing people "who's the boss" than just using some common sense and intelligent passive monitoring. Google "CPS failed"

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#36

Post by pmontra » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

Different country and different times but at 10 I walked to and from school alone, probably also before that age, can't remember. It would have been odd to go there with a parent, are you a mummy's boy? Furthermore everybody did it, no danger at all with the exception of one road crossing. One or two years later I started walking to that very same school with my younger brother before going to my new one. They started at the same time but luckily they were only a couple of blocks apart so I could manage. I sympathize for those kids and their parents and I'm worried seeing the same things happening here. Luckily no police involved, only apprehensive and omnipresent parents.

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#37

Post by rcruzeiro » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

repsilat wrote: post #30

graeme wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always worth considering alternative hypotheses, but I don't think this one holds true. I've lived in dangerous places. North Americans take very few safety precautions. In general: * People aren't aware of their surroundings. Often have headphones. * People wave phones around in the air, hold them loosely, or leave them dangling out of back pockets. * People use public ATMs, in insecure locations, and don't pay…

I understood most of what you said, but I'm not sure about > * They carry no cash to hand over in the event of a mugging Can you elaborate on this point? I'd be surprised if thieves thought, "Jeez, nothing to steal from this one, I'd better at least stab them or I won't have done anything wrong..."

In Brazil, where I lived most of my life, not having cash on you during a mugging can provoke a violent reaction from the mugger.

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#38

Post by joezydeco » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #4

"The first day of term coincided with the 1926 General Strike in Britain, but he was so determined to attend that he rode his bicycle unaccompanied more than 60 miles (97 km) from Southampton to Sherborne, stopping overnight at an inn." That's Alan Turing, aged 13. I used to walk home from school middle school across the centre of the town I lived in. That was about 1.5 miles. Was not considered weird or dangerous.

Kind of matches up with this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-...

"When George Thomas was eight he walked everywhere. It was 1926 and his parents were unable to afford the fare for a tram, let alone the cost of a bike and he regularly walked six miles to his favourite fishing haunt without adult supervision.

Fast forward to 2007 and Mr Thomas's eight-year-old great-grandson Edward enjoys none of that freedom.

He is driven the few minutes to school, is taken by car to a safe place to ride his bike and can roam no more than 300 yards from home."

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#39

Post by xrange » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #24

xrange wrote: post #17

So, I'm not up to speed on this issue, but can anyone give a brief summary or link describing why we need a special "extra-legal" department like CPS? Extra-legal probably isn't the exact wording I'm looking for, but why couldn't issues of excessive cruelty to children be handled in the standard manner, with due-process, etc.? I suppose I only hear about the outliers of extreme overreach, but it seems like CPS attrac…

Mostly it comes down to: division of labor is a thing. CPS is responsible for things like foster care, finding if parents are (truly) neglectful and abusive, helping teach ignorant parents how to not kill their kids accidentally, and other related things. In most of the work they do, it is just due process - Our society has decided that when a parent goes to jail, or is ordered into an institution, or what not, and d…

It sounds to me like providing foster families for incarcerated parents has nothing to do with this particular case, or child abuse in general, and the best "division of labor" would be to not have those under the same roof. But that's neither here nor there. Also, to the strange non-sequitur, I think that cops murdering people is worse than what the article describes.

Are you saying that:

A). All the facts of this particular care aren't being presented (certainly plausible).

B). You don't find the conduct of the CPS in this case infuriating.

C). For the sake of argument you accept the facts as presented, you personally find it reprehensible, but you don't think others should find it reprehensible, or at least shouldn't try to call it out as such.

D). You work for a related agency, and naturally would want to stand up for your colleagues? Certainly you sound a little on the defensive side.

E). Other?

...maybe these social workers should be on a rotation, so they're not working on the same thing for more than two years. Kind of like prison guards should be, so they don't end up dehumanizing the inmates?

Re: Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

#40

Post by chris_wot » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #24

xrange wrote: post #17

So, I'm not up to speed on this issue, but can anyone give a brief summary or link describing why we need a special "extra-legal" department like CPS? Extra-legal probably isn't the exact wording I'm looking for, but why couldn't issues of excessive cruelty to children be handled in the standard manner, with due-process, etc.? I suppose I only hear about the outliers of extreme overreach, but it seems like CPS attrac…

Mostly it comes down to: division of labor is a thing. CPS is responsible for things like foster care, finding if parents are (truly) neglectful and abusive, helping teach ignorant parents how to not kill their kids accidentally, and other related things. In most of the work they do, it is just due process - Our society has decided that when a parent goes to jail, or is ordered into an institution, or what not, and d…

It's because the general idea that someone can take away the children you love due to a misunderstanding is pretty freaking terrifying!

Parents make mistakes all the time. When you see stupidity like this, you realise there's a problem. It's very unfortunate, because at the same time as ridiculous things like this one are occurring there really are abused kids out there slipping through the cracks.