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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#191

Post by akgerber »

fixedd wrote: post #113
zanny wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all…

There's 2.5k people in my town and it's news here (literally) when someone is arrested shopping at the local Wal-Mart. The police have two miltary-issue Humvees, for some reason.

A non-uparmored Humvee seems like a nicer pickup truck, and would be useful in a small town where rescues in an isolated area are part of the job.

An uparmored Humvee, on the other hand, is problematic.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#192

Post by algorithmsRcool »

tinco wrote: post #151
amirmc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this attitude confusing. You're suggesting that cops are the ones who need to be made to feel safer? That by making them them feel safer they might be less likely to start shooting? Who is protecting who in this brave new world?

You're being irrational now. Of course cops need to be and feel safe. They are just humans, humans equipped with guns. Anything you can do to make sure they don't fire those guns prematurely should be done, after all, they're for protecting us. Calling it an armored tank is exaggerating. It's basically a mobile barrier that can carry a bunch of officers. There's all kinds of nice stuff you can do with them, and frank…

I want to contend this point strongly. My home city (approx 200k people) does not have gang activity, we don't have drugs or prostitution or muggings or car-jackings as major problems (or problems at all). There are very very few parts of my city that i would feel threatened walking alone down the street at 3am. All of them on the outskirts of the city and in swamp areas. And yet the city has acquired a ex-military armored troop carrier.

Why?

We don't have shootouts with drug lords going on. My city has suffered exactly 3 officer deaths on duty in the last 25 years and only one of those was by gunfire (15 years ago). I utterly reject the reasoning that my city's officers need to be made to feel safe by the acquisition of ex-military hardware.

Let me be as clear as i can, that vehicle does not make me, the citizen, feel safe. I've seen them deploy that vehicle for something as common has a home robbery. This is not Afghanistan, criminals are not enemy combatants. When you have that kind of hardware sitting around, you will find a use for it.

I don't know what kinds of 'nice things' you are referring to, i'd love to hear examples. Lastly i reject that euphemistic description of that troop carrier as a 'robust all terrain vehicle'. This is a well paved, suburban, low violence city; not Kabul.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#193

Post by fintler »

Aeolun wrote: post #82

I don't think the problem is so much that flashbangs are being thrown, as that they are thrown when storming the house of someone committing the grave crime of illegally selling nachos.

Not only a raid with flashbangs. They also tried to take an old lady's house for selling Nachos.

"Afterward, the city of Little Rock sued Harris, alleging that her property should be declared a nuisance and “abated” — or razed — since it was being used to facilitate criminal violations."

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#194

Post by philwelch »

brazzy wrote: post #131
caf wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read the same about the Rwandan Genocide.

The Cambodian killing fields as well. However, you have to remember that in none of these cases did the perpetrators act spontaneously on random victims. They were all primed to see the victims as part of a group both inferior (i.e. not deserving of empathy) and threatening (i.e. to be feared, hated and eliminated).

Your typical racist cop is primed the same way.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#195

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

zanny wrote: post #83
girvo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...

They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all…

> There are plenty of good cops,

If there were plenty, why are the bad cops never arrested?

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#196

Post by jimbokun »

happyscrappy wrote: post #180
morganvachon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all it just goes to police forces at auction. Sometimes not even sold, but given. There are government programs where police departments can ask for used military gear and get it at no cost (i.e. no impact to their budget). This makes the departments especially eager to acquire…

While we should be on guard for police abuses let's not pretend it is anywhere near Mao or Stalin.

I went through school in the 70s and 80s, and also remember learning about the clear dividing lines of inalienable human rights spelled out in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution that made us different from the Soviet Union.

Maybe the difference was never as black and white as it seemed to me at the time, but I still believe we have been drifting away from the protection of basic rights I was once taught were so important to who we are as a people.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#197

Post by bmelton »

exprL wrote: post #183
antimagic wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, French police carry sidearms... And if that's not enough, during periods of elevated risk of a terrorist attack, you even get soldiers walking around with semi-automatic rifles in squads of three.

This interests me (in a slightly off-topic way): do the soldiers really switch their service weapons to a semi-automatic model in order to patrol, or are all the rifles within the military police (etc.) semi-automatic only?

I suspect that you're mistaken on what semi-automatic means. Basically all of the rifles likely to be carried by law enforcement are semi-automatic, except for sharp-shooters, who my carry a single-shot with a floated barrel.

Semi-automatic is not automatic, and has no burst or rapid-fire mechanisms. All semi-automatic rifles shoot one bullet for each pull of the trigger, and in 2015, that's the norm for just about every patrol rifle in the world, except for those needing long-range accuracy, which is a fairly niche application nowadays.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#198

Post by bmelton »

dagw wrote: post #161
tomohawk wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the problem with police not having guns is amply demonstrated by the recent terror in France. The first police to respond were unarmed.

What difference to you think it would have made if they had been armed?

In this case, since the OP is incorrect, and they were armed, absolutely nothing.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#199

Post by bmelton »

fixedd wrote: post #113
zanny wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all…

There's 2.5k people in my town and it's news here (literally) when someone is arrested shopping at the local Wal-Mart. The police have two miltary-issue Humvees, for some reason.

The DoD is selling off the old equipment to local LEOs for pennies on the dollar.

Simultaneously, the terms of the sale dictate that they must use those military items within a year of purchase, or they have to return the items.

This is why the police are increasingly using military gear in situations for which they are not warranted.

I don't like this source, per se, but I've seen it posted elsewhere, and this is the handiest one right now, so here it is.

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/tanks-on-the-streets-...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#200

Post by EC1 »

the_af wrote: post #36
MarkPNeyer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see the need of assaulting a home. it's almost always for drugs, where they'd be afraid the person could flush them down the toilet.

If you arrest people outside their house when they go for a walk, how on earth are they going to "flush the drugs down the toilet"?

What, you don't carry a portable toilet around?
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