“Nothing you can do impresses me” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#121

Post by BhavdeepSethi » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:52 PM UTC

doktrin wrote: post #103

I sympathize with the general sentiment but did not like the piece itself. I am open to considering the possibility that I am in fact part of the problem. Nonetheless, I will share my thoughts. > But because of the urgent need for new blood / ideas in the tech world, our lack of ability to reward new developers is a particularly profound example of shooting oneself in the foot. Slow down. You're fresh out of coding b…

This. Exactly this. I would hate to work with such people. Taken aback? Bold claim? As a novice developer if someone is declaring their app to be "secure" then there is nothing wrong with it. There are two possible scenarios.

1. They've actually made the app really secure. -> Appreciate it.

2. They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate it. The feedback be given in a much more positive way by acknowledging their existing work and then giving them few pointers of making the app more secure. If you were taken aback then you're just being cocky.

You're not expected to be friendly with anyone. At the same time, there is no need to be condescending. You, as a senior dev, are expected to give positive feedback and mentor the group of new developers.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#122

Post by doktrin » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:03 PM UTC

amirmc wrote: post #120

doktrin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. > There are may ways to give encouraging feedback You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. > The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive…

> You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you). > The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fac…

> My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you).

You're jumping to the unreasonable conclusion that the only possible interpretation of "paying ones dues" is to be "shit on".

That is, quite correctly, the view held by certain occupations (e.g. the military), but it is not the only way to parse the term.

A more charitable way of interpreting it would be as shorthand for "demonstrating commitment and competence". This is a fairly ubiquitous concept across virtually all professions.

> Picking an extreme example and then saying tech is gentle by comparison is somewhat ridiculous. The tech industry is certainly more relaxed in a number of ways (e.g dress code) but that doesn't mean it's 'gentle' in every respect.

Did you expect me to enumerate every industry that I consider less forgiving and more emotionally demanding than tech? Fine.

    academia
    finance
    military & law enforcement
    law
    medicine
    management consulting

Those are just the industries I could name off the top of my head and which I have enough familiarity with to pass judgment.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#123

Post by nawitus » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #118

nawitus wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a tiny minority of tech companies hire against any kind of formal assessment rubric. Is there any evidence of how well this works? From what I've read these "formal" hiring strategies don't seem to lead to good results. In fact, the typical critique of tech hiring is that "HR" people have too much influence on the hiring process over technical experts. I don't know how to solve hiring, but I'm confident that i…

Nothing I said had anything to do with "HR" people.

Something I said had something to do with "HR" people.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#124

Post by doktrin » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

BhavdeepSethi wrote: post #121

doktrin wrote: post #103

I sympathize with the general sentiment but did not like the piece itself. I am open to considering the possibility that I am in fact part of the problem. Nonetheless, I will share my thoughts. > But because of the urgent need for new blood / ideas in the tech world, our lack of ability to reward new developers is a particularly profound example of shooting oneself in the foot. Slow down. You're fresh out of coding b…

This. Exactly this. I would hate to work with such people. Taken aback? Bold claim? As a novice developer if someone is declaring their app to be "secure" then there is nothing wrong with it. There are two possible scenarios. 1. They've actually made the app really secure. -> Appreciate it. 2. They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate i…

> They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate it. The feedback be given in a much more positive way by acknowledging their existing work and then giving them few pointers of making the app more secure. If you were taken aback then you're just being cocky.

You're injecting my comment into a manufactured scenario.

I'm not performing a code review, vulnerability assessment or pen test nor am I the OP's supervisor. I'm sharing my reaction to a web product as a potential consumer.

An invalid claim of security causes me to lose trust in the product and its creators. It's as simple as that.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#125

Post by JustSomeNobody » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:16 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #119

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly true. One should not be controlled by empathy. Being empathetic allows one to choose one's words wisely. The goal is not to allow sub-standard code to pass. The goal is to correct and educate, but do it in a positive way. Empathy allows one to put oneself in another's shoes and ask, "How would I want my mentor to correct me?" Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the "even losers get a trophy" mentality. Bu…

I've never been able to find a way to be warm/positive/supportive/encouraging/empathic while also impressing on someone that their screwup might have cost the company six+ figures. Or worse - in some contexts, consequences can be kinetic. Blood baths are not acceptable, but positivity is not always capable of effectively communicating consequences. Positivity works best when very little explaining of mistakes is requ…

If code has gotten out into the wild and has cost a company six+ figures, that developer is _not_ the company's biggest problem and it's not all his/her fault.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#126

Post by forgottenpass » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:18 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #118

nawitus wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a tiny minority of tech companies hire against any kind of formal assessment rubric. Is there any evidence of how well this works? From what I've read these "formal" hiring strategies don't seem to lead to good results. In fact, the typical critique of tech hiring is that "HR" people have too much influence on the hiring process over technical experts. I don't know how to solve hiring, but I'm confident that i…

Nothing I said had anything to do with "HR" people.

HR tends to be the implementation of a formal rubric applied to job candidates, filtering candidates out before resumes wind up on the desk of the person performing a less rigidly defined consideration.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#127

Post by Kalium » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #125

Kalium wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been able to find a way to be warm/positive/supportive/encouraging/empathic while also impressing on someone that their screwup might have cost the company six+ figures. Or worse - in some contexts, consequences can be kinetic. Blood baths are not acceptable, but positivity is not always capable of effectively communicating consequences. Positivity works best when very little explaining of mistakes is requ…

If code has gotten out into the wild and has cost a company six+ figures, that developer is _not_ the company's biggest problem and it's not all his/her fault.

You'd be surprised. Some companies give individual devs a lot of autonomy.

My point is that positivity and empathy works best when people already know they've screwed up. Otherwise, you have to explain how they erred, what the consequences were/are, and how to fix it. The first two are more difficult to do in a positive way.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#128

Post by kat » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

nercury wrote: post #8

If you want to see real delight in your work, do it for someone who needs it! They are usually not your co-workers :)

I think some times it can be your co-workers. Write a script for the service team to automate some manual task, talk to QA about something they always have to manually setup - skunk work projects are a great way of delighting your co-workers.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#129

Post by tptacek » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 1:24 AM UTC

forgottenpass wrote: post #126

tptacek wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing I said had anything to do with "HR" people.

HR tends to be the implementation of a formal rubric applied to job candidates, filtering candidates out before resumes wind up on the desk of the person performing a less rigidly defined consideration.

Yes. Don't do that either.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#130

Post by hyc_symas » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 8:05 AM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #38

stevewepay wrote: post #15

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

It's not just 'this industry.' You'll find people in all professions who try to make themselves look and feel smart by throwing stones at other ideas. Frankly, it can be effective. Non-expert outside observers (sometimes this means managers) can be impressed by such cheap-shot artists. It's easy to criticize, but hard to create; critical responses are the low-hanging fruit of intellectual discourse.

Yes, it's hard to create. But after 35+ years writing software, I haven't just seen it all, I've done it all.

This topic is surprisingly well timed for me; just the other day I was reflecting on the fact that most times I'm moved to comment on something, it's sharp criticism. I was wondering if I've just got a massive negative attitude; I would prefer to be more positive in my approach to life. But this is the reality - most of what I'm criticizing really is stupid crap. And when something comes along that's actually praiseworthy, I acknowledge that accordingly too. It's just that those events are few and far between.

As for ideas presented by newbies, my initial reaction depends a lot on presentation. If it's an overly excited, enthusiastic "hey guys, look at this amazing new thing I've created" I'm more inclined to judge it harshly. If it's a more measured, "I think this could be interesting" I'll be more inclined to study it and evaluate it supportively. The message defines the messenger, and sometimes the messenger deserves to be shot.

Someone above commented about negative critique reflecting arrogance and ignorance from the critiquer. I think the case I just described is the opposite - it is arrogant and ignorant of the newbie to believe they've discovered something that no one has thought of before. Most of the time you can point them to previous solutions with no more than a few seconds' thought. Most of the time their approach demonstrates that they don't understand the system they're working with, and don't even understand the problem they think they've solved. A cautious presentation indicates that they've thought it through and are aware of their own limitations - I always encourage thoughtfulness. An over-excited presentation generally means the opposite, and I will discourage them strongly and harshly. There's no excuse for ignorance, not in this age of ubiquitous access to information.

This isn't kindergarten. Not everybody deserves a gold star.