“Nothing you can do impresses me” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#111

Post by sosuke » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

There are few different focuses in the post. It bounces around so I may not be responding correctly. As someone else said the attitude of the approach matters.

The first example of a junior developer making an application. They are full of pride, having taught themselves one technology stack to produce one application. Unfortunately she leaves out the approach. With assumptions, this junior developer is looking for validation of their achievement from a senior developer working at the same company. They are not peers, they are not friends.

If the first thing out of the senior developers mouth was a straight faced "is it responsive" with no sign of sarcasm then they don't want to be your friend, mentor, and only care about the number of bugs you create or fix. Great, you've learned as a junior developer that this senior developer is not on your side, and you should seek validation else where. From other junior developers perhaps, or ask another senior developer for feedback while first informing them you put a lot of work into it and what kind of feedback you want.

The senior developer taught themselves that same stack, and a dozen other stacks. They did it for free, it doesn't matter that you did, you've made 60 pages of code they've wrote several libraries of congress's worth of bugs. Your success doesn't mean anything to them because there is nothing special in it, and they are not your friend. There are other junior developers on the team that also taught themselves a stack, maybe two. You won't find admiration for your achievements from within the group. If you want a mentor then approach the senior developers with that, say you want to learn more, want to shadow them, peer program perhaps. However don't expect it from them, no one is entitled to it so you're asking them to put in care and effort. Even asking someone to review your project has a cost, it takes time, caring, and effort to do it right.

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The interviewer asking a question like that was attempting to engage you in a critical problem solving thought process. You don't know, that doesn't matter, how would you find out, what steps would you take, why would there be alternatives.

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The feedback the junior developer received isn't skeptical it is dismissive. Being dismissive isn't nice. It isn't snobbery, you get to be senior developer by being a better programmer, by being better at just that stack, by being there first, by luck or by time.

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If you worked at a Michelin star restaurant as a sous chef, and on the side you worked for a month perfecting a veal dish, then presented it to your head chef. You bet your ass they would be critical of it. If you presented it to your friend, they would shower you in praise and enjoy eating it with you.

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On hiring, yes there are problems, there are cliques, existing developers might feel threatened, but those don't just apply to junior developers.

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All that being said I love a developer who takes the initiative to teach themselves a stack on their own time. That is awesome, keep doing it, don't stop, find other sources of camaraderie and mentorship.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#112

Post by jnbiche » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:07 PM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #97

jnbiche wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just women who prefer this communication style, by the way. As a male, I find the constant jockying for position among other men to be tiresome and stressful. It's particularly acute among other coders. To be honest, it's also one of the main reasons I don't maintain many friendships with men. There are others still who are often excluded in this kind of environment: minorities, LGBTs, and people who are shy…

I feel the same way, but I think it is wrong to consider that style bad. We shouldn't have to contain our natural exuberance and energy all the time. A true diversity would provide some place for it.

Fair point, and I don't consider it "bad" in the workplace. I've worked in places where there was an abundance of different styles (in academia), and it worked great. I'm actually kind of trying to return to academia (as staff, probably) for that reason.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#113

Post by amirmc » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

sosuke wrote: post #108

doktrin wrote: post #103

I sympathize with the general sentiment but did not like the piece itself. I am open to considering the possibility that I am in fact part of the problem. Nonetheless, I will share my thoughts. > But because of the urgent need for new blood / ideas in the tech world, our lack of ability to reward new developers is a particularly profound example of shooting oneself in the foot. Slow down. You're fresh out of coding b…

I had a similar feeling. You start out doing grunt work when you're new in a career, it isn't glamorous and you have to prove yourself through actions. Coworkers are not friends first, they are coworkers. I'm not sure, but I think this post has a feeling of entitlement.

I think this thread demonstrates (at least part of) the issue. If you've been hired then you're already past the first hurdle. The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. There are may ways to give encouraging feedback (I'm sure there are plenty of books on it), so it's more of an attitude thing.

The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive, cantankerous and create terrible environments to work in (imho). Not something that the developer community should aspire to.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#114

Post by nawitus » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:27 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #23

The kernel of the argument in this post is hiring. The discussion about "coder culture"† is germane because it drives the gatekeeping function of in-group coders in hiring. I don't have a problem with people discussing what is or isn't productive about how a stereotypical programmer behaves in groups. But the real issue here is that the stereotypical programmer is given entirely too much authority in the hiring proce…

> Only a tiny minority of tech companies hire against any kind of formal assessment rubric.

Is there any evidence of how well this works? From what I've read these "formal" hiring strategies don't seem to lead to good results. In fact, the typical critique of tech hiring is that "HR" people have too much influence on the hiring process over technical experts.

I don't know how to solve hiring, but I'm confident that it's not been solved yet, and it's a very difficult problem.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#115

Post by JustSomeNobody » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:29 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #84

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #75

1. A lot of developers are missing something in the brain that allows them to feel empathy. 2. Coding is all mental (don't tell that to your hands). So, when you question a developer's code, it's kinda personal. Some take this hard. Too hard. So they build up a defensive barrier. 3. Developers are treated as a commodity by people with business degrees. This feeds the notion that they need to be perceived as the best…

It should be remembered that feeling empathy is not the same as being controlled by empathy. Just because I feel empathy for a newbie's struggles does not mean I am going to push sub-standard code live so they can get that feeling of success. As the article notes, a ruthlessly critical attitude towards your own work is very important. I'd argue that it's one of the most important traits that helps an engineer develop…

Exactly true. One should not be controlled by empathy. Being empathetic allows one to choose one's words wisely. The goal is not to allow sub-standard code to pass. The goal is to correct and educate, but do it in a positive way. Empathy allows one to put oneself in another's shoes and ask, "How would I want my mentor to correct me?" Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the "even losers get a trophy" mentality. But I've been in code reviews that have turned into blood baths. That's just not appropriate at all. Ever.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#116

Post by doktrin » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

amirmc wrote: post #113

sosuke wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar feeling. You start out doing grunt work when you're new in a career, it isn't glamorous and you have to prove yourself through actions. Coworkers are not friends first, they are coworkers. I'm not sure, but I think this post has a feeling of entitlement.

I think this thread demonstrates (at least part of) the issue. If you've been hired then you're already past the first hurdle. The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. There are may ways to give encouraging feedback (I'm sure there are plenty of books on it), so it's more of an attitude thing. The comparison with the professional chef is a…

> The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'.

> There are may ways to give encouraging feedback

You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another.

> The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive, cantankerous and create terrible environments to work in (imho). Not something that the developer community should aspire to.

That actually wasn't lost on me. TV shows aggrandize it, but the culinary world is not a polite one.

If anything, this should help serve as a point of reference. The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fact exceedingly gentle.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#117

Post by JustSomeNobody » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #87

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #75

1. A lot of developers are missing something in the brain that allows them to feel empathy. 2. Coding is all mental (don't tell that to your hands). So, when you question a developer's code, it's kinda personal. Some take this hard. Too hard. So they build up a defensive barrier. 3. Developers are treated as a commodity by people with business degrees. This feeds the notion that they need to be perceived as the best…

This is a depressingly perceptive comment. Is there anyway to counter or discourage these tendencies in other coders, do you think? Normally, that would be management's job, or that of senior devs. But the former seem to encourage, or at least tolerate hypercritical responses, and the latter often actively engage in them.

Good question. I don't really know the answer. I worked at a company where the developers were very negative. Conversations just dripped with sarcasm. I think it's infectious. If the mentors are negative and overly critical, I think people become like them at some point, if only because that's the only way to communicate with them. I think you have to be self-aware and just know when it's time to exit.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#118

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

nawitus wrote: post #114

tptacek wrote: post #23

The kernel of the argument in this post is hiring. The discussion about "coder culture"† is germane because it drives the gatekeeping function of in-group coders in hiring. I don't have a problem with people discussing what is or isn't productive about how a stereotypical programmer behaves in groups. But the real issue here is that the stereotypical programmer is given entirely too much authority in the hiring proce…

> Only a tiny minority of tech companies hire against any kind of formal assessment rubric. Is there any evidence of how well this works? From what I've read these "formal" hiring strategies don't seem to lead to good results. In fact, the typical critique of tech hiring is that "HR" people have too much influence on the hiring process over technical experts. I don't know how to solve hiring, but I'm confident that i…

Nothing I said had anything to do with "HR" people.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#119

Post by Kalium » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #115

Kalium wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be remembered that feeling empathy is not the same as being controlled by empathy. Just because I feel empathy for a newbie's struggles does not mean I am going to push sub-standard code live so they can get that feeling of success. As the article notes, a ruthlessly critical attitude towards your own work is very important. I'd argue that it's one of the most important traits that helps an engineer develop…

Exactly true. One should not be controlled by empathy. Being empathetic allows one to choose one's words wisely. The goal is not to allow sub-standard code to pass. The goal is to correct and educate, but do it in a positive way. Empathy allows one to put oneself in another's shoes and ask, "How would I want my mentor to correct me?" Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the "even losers get a trophy" mentality. Bu…

I've never been able to find a way to be warm/positive/supportive/encouraging/empathic while also impressing on someone that their screwup might have cost the company six+ figures. Or worse - in some contexts, consequences can be kinetic.

Blood baths are not acceptable, but positivity is not always capable of effectively communicating consequences. Positivity works best when very little explaining of mistakes is required.

Sometimes an empathetic explanation that something should be better will suffice. Sometimes you encounter "It works, it's fine", and something more than empathy is required.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#120

Post by amirmc » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

doktrin wrote: post #116

amirmc wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this thread demonstrates (at least part of) the issue. If you've been hired then you're already past the first hurdle. The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. There are may ways to give encouraging feedback (I'm sure there are plenty of books on it), so it's more of an attitude thing. The comparison with the professional chef is a…

> The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. > There are may ways to give encouraging feedback You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. > The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive…

> You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another.

My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you).

> The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fact exceedingly gentle.

Picking an extreme example and then saying tech is gentle by comparison is somewhat ridiculous. The tech industry is certainly more relaxed in a number of ways (e.g dress code) but that doesn't mean it's 'gentle' in every respect. As the OP tries to point out.