Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

iamjwal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 273 posts

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#121

Post by DanBC »

logicallee wrote: post #71
loteck wrote: post #60

Do we care more about student progress or our appearance? We care about both, and we have to. Proposed solutions will have to cater to this reality to have any hope of success. Why can’t we start a movement to walk away from these tests? Because a ton of scared people think the tests are the safety net of education. They are the last resort. If you got a bad education and can still past the test, it's a quantifiable…

>> Why can’t we start a movement to walk away from these tests? >Because a ton of scared people think the tests are the safety net of education. They are the last resort. If you got a bad education and can still past the test, it's a quantifiable bare minimum. Why does test-driven development enable the efficient creation of software that works, but the same isn't true of education? For example, asking a student to r…

> Test-driven education has resulted in an American literacy rate of 99%

I have a hard time reconciling this 99% figure with other statistics about illiteracy in the US.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-american-adults-who-...

14% of American adults can't read. 21% of American adults read below a 5th grade level.

The difference is partly the definition used. The CIA world factbook (the source of the WP information) uses "age 15 and over can read and write." The CIA World Factbook uses an estimate for the US 99% figure and does not give any explanation how they get that figure.

It's an estimate from census data. There are problems with that estimation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States

> The Census Bureau reported literacy rates of 86% based on personal interviews of a relatively small portion of the population and on written responses to Census Bureau mailings. They also considered individuals literate if they simply stated that they could read and write, and made the assumption that anyone with a fifth grade education had at least an 80% chance of being literate.

That feels like a pretty big flaw when we know that rates of literacy for 8th graders are below 50%. And the numbers are far worse when we look at math.

You are right: testing is important. The problems with testing are bad teachers can teach only to the test and lessons that could be about general problem solving approaches turn into "guess which answer is more likely from the multiple choice selection" - a less useful skill.

The other problem with tests is explaining the tests to adults. Two examples here. i) the extensive discussion about common core math. ii) England teaches "synthetic phonics". To make sure pupils are using real synthetic phonics to read and not just learning whole words the tests use nonsense words. This tests a child's ability to sound out the letters and then smoosh those sounds together. This caused some confusion in parents.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#122

Post by jnbiche »

noir-york wrote: post #120

The American political system is broken. Here is a middle-class family that can barely make it. The GOP harp on about lower taxes and immigration, and the Dems talk about economic equality and healthcare. The ACA helps the middle-class but the political gridlock ensures that the president, or anyone else, can't force through effective change. Commonly cited are campaign finance and lobbying and polarisation but those…

>even if Warren were to be the president (a far off prospect, even though she is what the US needs)

There's little evidence that Warren wouldn't just continue the current policies of the Obama administration, perhaps with a few extra low-benefit bureaucratic programs on top.

She talks a good game, but so did Obama.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, though. The problem here is the entire political system. It's nothing an individual can effectively change (because the system selects for individuals who won't change the system).

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#123

Post by qj4714 »

noir-york wrote: post #120

The American political system is broken. Here is a middle-class family that can barely make it. The GOP harp on about lower taxes and immigration, and the Dems talk about economic equality and healthcare. The ACA helps the middle-class but the political gridlock ensures that the president, or anyone else, can't force through effective change. Commonly cited are campaign finance and lobbying and polarisation but those…

The political system and Senate reflect the division in the country. There is no easy fix. The problem is people do not trust their government, which is reflective of the current political environment and is the primary reason these problems are not addressed.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#124

Post by FeeTinesAMady »

deadgrey19 wrote: post #115
jonpress wrote: post #109

I was surprised that he mentioned the global financial crisis. I think 'too big to fail' was one of the biggest frauds ever committed against society. There is no such thing as too big to fail. I think the 2008 financial crisis was an evolutionary mechanism for society to rid itself of excessive greed among its leaders (natural selection). The bailout was an unnatural intervention and will only serve to propagate the…

This seems a little short-sighted to me. Bailing out the banks was not a question of protecting the banks (who are by no means blameless), it was a question of limiting collateral damage. A large bank failing has the potential to render (literally) millions of innocent people ("mom's and pop's") instantly bankrupt. If a bank fails, there's no way to get your money out. The money simply goes away. Typically banking pr…

That doesn't make any sense. You seem to be assuming that it's impossible to bail out the bank's clients and let the bank itself fail, but that is not, in fact, impossible. That would insulate all those families from that collateral damage while still allowing the scumbags at the top to feel the effects.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#125

Post by jgamman »

WalterBright wrote: post #116
femto wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three arguments against standardised tests: 1) As system, schools tend to teach towards the test, at the expense of a diverse education. 2) The tests essentially test how good a student is at doing tests, rather than what they have understood and learned. Children can do brilliantly in the classroom and badly on the test, then be marked as a poor student. 3) The tests are used to categorise the children as they go th…

I don't understand how someone can master a subject yet be unable to answer written questions about it. In my anecdotal 16 years of schooling, I can't recall a single instance of it.

but the converse isn't necessarily true ie, i can pass a test with memorised factoids without any understanding. i suspect that the mass delusion regarding 'tests' is conflating this assumption with the alternative which is far far more likely to actually happen. seriously, would the world fall apart if we let people take tests when they want/feel they have mastered the material and only accept a 90% pass? who's still terrified of the 9 times tables after they're 8 years old...?

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#126

Post by toyg »

qj4714 wrote: post #123
noir-york wrote: post #120

The American political system is broken. Here is a middle-class family that can barely make it. The GOP harp on about lower taxes and immigration, and the Dems talk about economic equality and healthcare. The ACA helps the middle-class but the political gridlock ensures that the president, or anyone else, can't force through effective change. Commonly cited are campaign finance and lobbying and polarisation but those…

The political system and Senate reflect the division in the country. There is no easy fix. The problem is people do not trust their government, which is reflective of the current political environment and is the primary reason these problems are not addressed.

> The political system and Senate reflect the division in the country.

I'd argue that, with voter turnout barely hitting 55% for the most important election in the land, the political system does not reflect much except a view of politics as media-driven spectator sport.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#127

Post by rossta »

I taught middle school science in Houston for five years. I decided to leave the traditional public school system for many of the same reasons the author makes about his experience. This was over a decade ago so it's sad to hear the same problems persist.

Alternatives like charter schools have not always fared well, but some, like YES College Prep (http://www.yesprep.org/), are serving low income areas and achieving profound success. They've been able to replicate a model where teachers, students and parents all buy into the same mission: that all students must gain acceptance into a four year college or university to graduate. YES began with the hard work a few enterprising teachers who became tired of a broken system - not much different from a tech startup in a way.

I've often felt if the teaching profession was prestigious as, say, law or medicine, we could eventually solve the problems in education. That's not to say we don't have problems with our legal system or healthcare - but it'd be hard to argue there is a shortage of good lawyers or doctors. Imagine if we had no shortage of good teachers... But we don't pay teachers well, there are stigmas ("Those who can't...) and a lack of long term benefits outside of the daily joy of interacting with young people and helping them grow - we'd all be crazy to leave tech to go teach, right?

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#128

Post by deong »

deadgrey19 wrote: post #115
jonpress wrote: post #109

I was surprised that he mentioned the global financial crisis. I think 'too big to fail' was one of the biggest frauds ever committed against society. There is no such thing as too big to fail. I think the 2008 financial crisis was an evolutionary mechanism for society to rid itself of excessive greed among its leaders (natural selection). The bailout was an unnatural intervention and will only serve to propagate the…

This seems a little short-sighted to me. Bailing out the banks was not a question of protecting the banks (who are by no means blameless), it was a question of limiting collateral damage. A large bank failing has the potential to render (literally) millions of innocent people ("mom's and pop's") instantly bankrupt. If a bank fails, there's no way to get your money out. The money simply goes away. Typically banking pr…

Well, the banks are fine now, but we still can't pass even the tiniest bit of legislation curtailing the worst of their activities.

You're right; we did have to bail out the banks. The decision to absolve them of any responsibility, continue groveling at their feet, and just generally lay out a red carpet lined with bags of money for them to take on their way to the next instance of destruction...that's a choice we're making.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#129

Post by peterfirefly »

wyclif wrote: post #102
warfangle wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is (in a socialist market). Finnish teachers have some of the utmost prestige.

The problem with those who make 1:1 comparisons of the US and Finnish public education systems is that Finland is largely (yes, I know there are some Swedes there) a homogeneous culture, whereas the US is a "melting pot" containing a huge variety of cultures.

The Swedes there are not the problem. The recent Muslim immigration is. The PISA scores are falling in Finland, too, in accordance with the rising number of school children of (recent) Muslim origin.

: The Tartars do not seem to be stupid and do fine.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#130

Post by deong »

FeeTinesAMady wrote: post #124
deadgrey19 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems a little short-sighted to me. Bailing out the banks was not a question of protecting the banks (who are by no means blameless), it was a question of limiting collateral damage. A large bank failing has the potential to render (literally) millions of innocent people ("mom's and pop's") instantly bankrupt. If a bank fails, there's no way to get your money out. The money simply goes away. Typically banking pr…

That doesn't make any sense. You seem to be assuming that it's impossible to bail out the bank's clients and let the bank itself fail, but that is not, in fact, impossible. That would insulate all those families from that collateral damage while still allowing the scumbags at the top to feel the effects.

> You seem to be assuming that it's impossible to bail out the bank's clients and let the bank itself fail, but that is not, in fact, impossible.

It probably was impossible. Banks don't just function as holding pens for your money. They're (by design) overly leveraged based on the idea that not everyone will want their money at the same time. If the bank fails, you need to come up with all the money at once, and there was never that much money in the bank to begin with.

Maybe you could have handled this by some system in which you backed people's deposits with things like bonds, but at a minimum, it's pretty complicated. It's easier, and probably better in the long run, to just reassure everyone that their money is safe in the bank, and give the bank whatever is needed to ensure that promise is kept.

Where we went wrong was in failing to meaningfully change the system that incentivized and allowed the failure to occur in the first place. We probably couldn't have done anything to avoid bailing them out the first time, but we could be doing much more to avoid the need to do it again and again in the future, but we're not, because the banks own the government and don't want us to.

Post reply on HN