Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#31

Post by ansible » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:49 PM UTC

bryondowd wrote: post #8

JamesBell wrote: post #6

So since we all develop cancer cells at some point doesn't this same logic hold to not "feed" them? And we might not be able to starve constantly but we can avoid producing insulin. I hope more studies can prove the links between dietary choices and cancer.

From the abstract posted by Junto, it looks like the idea isn't to starve the cancer cells, it's to starve the healthy cells. The point being that when starving, healthy cells stop growing and become less susceptible to chemo drugs, while the cancer cells ignore the starvation and keep growing, so do not get the same protection. Imagine a TV scene where the hero starts yelling 'get down' in a crowded area before a gu…

It is an interesting theory, that does make sense... not that "making sense" means that the theory is true!

It may be worthwhile to conduct more studies in this direction. I'd be interested to know how soon after the patient stops eating will be the maximum difference in response between normal and cancer cells. And if this is more effective for short chemo treatments, or for the longer ones.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#32

Post by leshow » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:50 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #28

junto wrote: post #3

Site seems a bit slow, so here's the abstract: Abstract Cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy treatment are advised to increase food intake to overcome the therapy-induced side effects, and weight loss. Dietary restriction is known to slow down the aging process and hence reduce age-related diseases such as cancer. Fasting or short-term starvation is more effective than dietary restriction to prevent cancer growth…

> Dietary restriction is known to slow down the aging process and hence reduce age-related diseases such as cancer Isn't this, uh, wrong? My understanding was that calorie restriction was very promising in some animals, but that the studies were never positive for humans or large primates.

It's definitely not a statement that should be taken as prima facie. The author having it in their abstract shows their bias.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#33

Post by stoicy » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:50 PM UTC

rip747 wrote: post #21

Can someone explain to me what is exactly meant by starvation in the article? Does it means that you don't go without any food for a number a days? Restrict your calorie in take to only 600 throughout the day? Only eat a single meal at night while fasting throughout the day? There really any specifics that I can see.

I don't have any authority to comment what they mean in this particular article, but I have studied the issue quite a bit. So I give you my own world view, whatever it's worth.

To get a quick therapeutic effect of starvation, the starvation has to endure several days. During that time the patient drinks water and doesn't ingest any calories at all. There are no exact rules, but after about 4 days the therapeutic effects kick into action, and about 7 days is the maximum. After that the starvation starts to make more harm than good.

This is not easy for a normal person accustomed to a western diet, let alone for someone going through chemotherapy. For someone who already eats correctly (see my other comment in this thread) it's not such a big deal. But then again, you don't see those people on cancer wards as patients too often.

As the saying goes, the best way to beat cancer is not to get one. And for that intermittent fasting is outstanding. In practice it means you eat one or two large portions of food a day. Between the last one of today and the first one of tomorrow should be about 16 hours, give or take. This gives you constant daily beneficial effects of fasting, and once you get accustomed to it and eat the right food, it feels great.

Some recommend a couple of 4-6 days fastings a year on top of this. It's a piece of cake for someone who has practiced such eating habits for some time.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#34

Post by stoicy » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

leshow wrote: post #25

stoicy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "in People get fat because they eat the wrong food, of which the effect of making them hungry and eat even more is only one of the many detrimental effects of unsuitable food for us or other animals. I don't write this to change your mind, but hope that if someone else reads this, at least this might give them some encouragement, so that they might persist through to read about the issue themselves. It really is…

Almost everything you say in this post is completely wrong. The body is not immune to the law of conservation of energy. If you think you can eat a caloric surplus of any food type and lose weight then you've resigned yourself to not think rationally.

I don't think so and I didn't say so above. I hope you read my text, not only the first sentence of it.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#35

Post by debacle » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

rip747 wrote: post #21

Can someone explain to me what is exactly meant by starvation in the article? Does it means that you don't go without any food for a number a days? Restrict your calorie in take to only 600 throughout the day? Only eat a single meal at night while fasting throughout the day? There really any specifics that I can see.

"During the first 10 hours of starvation, when the body utilizes any consumed food, stored glycogen becomes the main source of energy. When liver glycogen stores deplete, amino acids act as a source of energy. Eventually fatty acids and glycerol from adipose tissue serve as a major source of energy. If starvation continues for a week or more, fat derived β-hydroxybutyrate becomes the most abundant ketone in body while glucose production becomes very low. When fat stores are depleted rapid muscle degradation occurs and provides energy to the body through gluconeogenesis. Weight loss caused by starvation is initially intense and rapid but eventually becomes gradual. A study has shown that during the first week of starvation average weight loss is 0.9kg/day and reduces to 0.3kg/day by the third week."

You should probably try reading the article, since the entire thing deals with the science of fasting and starvation and they talk about everything from intermittent fasting to multi-week starvation diets. 72 hour fasts, alternate day fasting, and IF provide the greatest return for the least physiological cost (in that order).

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#36

Post by Lewton » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:53 PM UTC

leshow wrote: post #25

stoicy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "in People get fat because they eat the wrong food, of which the effect of making them hungry and eat even more is only one of the many detrimental effects of unsuitable food for us or other animals. I don't write this to change your mind, but hope that if someone else reads this, at least this might give them some encouragement, so that they might persist through to read about the issue themselves. It really is…

Almost everything you say in this post is completely wrong. The body is not immune to the law of conservation of energy. If you think you can eat a caloric surplus of any food type and lose weight then you've resigned yourself to not think rationally.

He did not say that you could eat a caloric surplus and lose weight.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#37

Post by tormeh » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

junto wrote: post #3

Site seems a bit slow, so here's the abstract: Abstract Cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy treatment are advised to increase food intake to overcome the therapy-induced side effects, and weight loss. Dietary restriction is known to slow down the aging process and hence reduce age-related diseases such as cancer. Fasting or short-term starvation is more effective than dietary restriction to prevent cancer growth…

tl;dr: Starving causes normal cells to get less sensitive to chemo while cancer cells remain just as sensitive as during normal eating. Starving better than just eating little.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#38

Post by stoicy » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:56 PM UTC

Lewton wrote: post #23

stoicy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "in People get fat because they eat the wrong food, of which the effect of making them hungry and eat even more is only one of the many detrimental effects of unsuitable food for us or other animals. I don't write this to change your mind, but hope that if someone else reads this, at least this might give them some encouragement, so that they might persist through to read about the issue themselves. It really is…

Reasonable post up until the point where you claimed eating right cures cancer

Yes I know it sounds absurd.

That just happens to be the topic of the article we're commenting on here. It's also the topic of the book Tripping Over the Truth: The Metabolic Theory of Cancer by Travis Christofferson.

I'm not going to argue about the issue here, but I recommend that book for everyone. If nothing else, it's an interesting read for the history of cancer research and the development of chemotherapeutic drugs.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#39

Post by Evgeny » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 3:00 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #28

junto wrote: post #3

Site seems a bit slow, so here's the abstract: Abstract Cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy treatment are advised to increase food intake to overcome the therapy-induced side effects, and weight loss. Dietary restriction is known to slow down the aging process and hence reduce age-related diseases such as cancer. Fasting or short-term starvation is more effective than dietary restriction to prevent cancer growth…

> Dietary restriction is known to slow down the aging process and hence reduce age-related diseases such as cancer Isn't this, uh, wrong? My understanding was that calorie restriction was very promising in some animals, but that the studies were never positive for humans or large primates.

I don't think strict studies in humans are even possible at all. I believe there were primate studies, but not very well designed, and there are some in progress.

Re: Starvation Based Chemotherapy: A Novel Approach for Cancer Treatment [pdf]

#40

Post by DiffEq » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 3:00 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #17

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #16

So if the doctor says you have cancer but they can't start the chemo for a week or two, just stop eating? At best you kill off some of the cells and give your immune system a slight boost. At worst you lose some weight that might buy you a few days later on down the line? I'm not sure there's anything useful here.

You didn't understand the article. You aren't trying to starve the cancer cells, you're trying to toughen up the normal cells. When starved, normal cells 'harden up' so to speak, whereas the cancer cells continue business as usual. When the chemo is administered, normal cells aren't as easily destroyed, but the cancer cells are.

Yes, I think "Toughen the cells" as you said is the right way of distilling this article; also note that subjecting yourself to periods of high heat or cold can produce a similar response. The mechanism, in part, is thought to be from what is called "Heat Shock" proteins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_shock_protein

As I said before, these proteins are made not just from heat exposure, but from other stress such as fasting and extreme cold exposure. Anyway, I think it is interesting as there is a reasonable amount of ancient literature linking fasting with health(for instance, Isaiah 58:8). Interesting how long science can take to "rediscover" certain basic things the ancients picked up on.