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The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

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Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#31

Post by userulluipeste »

happyscrappy wrote: post #21
jasonisalive wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has long held itself up as "better" than other countries - more virtuous, more wise, more free, more advanced, etc. etc. When you actually look into it you see: a) the utterly brutal dispossession and extermination of a weak and technologically primitive existing population b) the callous and self-serving enslavation of vast numbers of people c) vicious and destructive interference in weak countries across th…

They are widely hated by Europeans who do not even realize they are a vassal state. Most of the rest of the world would do anything to get to America.

"Most of the rest of the world would do anything to get to America."

I find this to be just a self-enforcing attitude (which one may get a chance to feel when entering a USA consulate).

Some decades ago, when there was a big difference in the quality of life between USA and "the rest of the world" (thanks to WW2 outcome), it made sense to claim such a thing. But things change, you know?

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#32

Post by coldtea »

swatow wrote: post #24

Vaguely reminiscent of maps of Israel and Palestine. Of course in the case of Native Americans, they are primarily to blame for obstinately refusing to accept the very generous division of 1807, in which they had the majority of the land. Instead they attacked the European settlers, leaving them with no choice but to expand for the purpose of self protection.

>Of course in the case of Native Americans, they are primarily to blame for obstinately refusing to accept the very generous division of 1807

Why should they accept the "generous division" of invaders?

Would you accept the "generous division" of your house or property, to some guy that just arrived and wants it?

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#33

Post by whybroke »

b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

If a party owns land the US, by what moral authority can they block others access to it? By what moral authority can they demand rent on threat of eviction? Why wouldn't any democratic agency simply have the right to take it from them without compensation?

The reason this is a deeply interesting topic is because there are exceptionally strong claims to property rights made in the US and that same property was almost entirely all stolen in the recent past.

And because one gets such inconsistencies as claiming the theft occurred in the "mists of time" when, by definition, the constitution itself is further back in those same mists of time.

And the logically absurd (and patently false claims) that one can't locate a parcel's original possessor therefore some arbitrary purchaser down an illicit chain can make nearly unlimited exclusive claim to owning it.

And of course endless use of tu quoque.

So the authors intention is an utterly uninteresting red herring. It is a remarkable opportunity for thoughtful people to examine their own inconsistent views. The rest will simply shut their ears and convince themselves their is no reason for contemplation.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#34

Post by coldtea »

happyscrappy wrote: post #21
jasonisalive wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has long held itself up as "better" than other countries - more virtuous, more wise, more free, more advanced, etc. etc. When you actually look into it you see: a) the utterly brutal dispossession and extermination of a weak and technologically primitive existing population b) the callous and self-serving enslavation of vast numbers of people c) vicious and destructive interference in weak countries across th…

They are widely hated by Europeans who do not even realize they are a vassal state. Most of the rest of the world would do anything to get to America.

Spoken like a true American (with all that implies).

Most of the world would want America to fucking live them alone.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#35

Post by cygwin98 »

arethuza wrote: post #15
kghose wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny…

Well, one possible perspective is that during a lot of the 20th century the US held itself to be morally superior to the "colonial" powers as they didn't have an empire. However, the US - like Russia, didn't colonize other "nations" it appears to have mostly completely supplanted them in the areas it grew into. Of course, this is only of historical interest, but as a wise man once wrote: "Who controls the past contro…

The Philippines?

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#36

Post by arethuza »

cygwin98 wrote: post #35
arethuza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one possible perspective is that during a lot of the 20th century the US held itself to be morally superior to the "colonial" powers as they didn't have an empire. However, the US - like Russia, didn't colonize other "nations" it appears to have mostly completely supplanted them in the areas it grew into. Of course, this is only of historical interest, but as a wise man once wrote: "Who controls the past contro…

The Philippines?

I should perhaps have said "likes to think it didn't colonize other nations".

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#37

Post by hnnewguy »

atlantic wrote: post #14
b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

So presumably, if some foreign power invaded the US next week, violently exterminated most of the population, and herded the survivors into a few tracts of land, you would be fine with that? After all, land changes hands continuously.

>So presumably, if some foreign power invaded the US next week, violently exterminated most of the population, and herded the survivors into a few tracts of land, you would be fine with that?

I can tell you that I wouldn't expect to stand on my doorstep, facing the men with guns, saying, "ah, ah, ah, I own this land!" and have them turn away.

We do horrible things to other people, no doubt about it. Even worse, this specific moment in history isn't unique. So it goes.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#38

Post by userulluipeste »

arethuza wrote: post #15
kghose wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny…

Well, one possible perspective is that during a lot of the 20th century the US held itself to be morally superior to the "colonial" powers as they didn't have an empire. However, the US - like Russia, didn't colonize other "nations" it appears to have mostly completely supplanted them in the areas it grew into. Of course, this is only of historical interest, but as a wise man once wrote: "Who controls the past contro…

In US the government sold land that it didn't own to armed civilians and then sent its armies to help with negotiation and settling things. Russia occupied Siberia by sending explorers and then government officials to siberian chieftains requiring submission under Russian tsarists crown by threatening them with military invasion. Then it was not uncommon in Russia for various ethnic populations to be moved (willingly or not) from one place to another in order to accomplish some political agenda. So neither US nor Russia have not "grew into" just like that.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#40

Post by kingmanaz »

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land.

As usual, the concepts of "native United States citizen" and "native North American aborigine" are being conflated.

The United States is a "nation of colonists". The Republic did not precede the North-Western European colonists who founded it. Demands for non-Aborigionies to acknowledge "someone else's land" stem from a failure to distinguish between United States citizenship and chance birth on the North American continent. The North American Aborigine peoples may have historically been born on the North American landmass, but they were not the founders of the United States nor the people whose interests said nation was designed to further. The disorganized aboriginals variously aided or hindered the expansion of the Republic depending on the particular tribe's short term ends.

The European pioneers did not "steal" a pre-existing democratic republic, rather, they struggled, triumphed, and created their own for their progeny. North American Aborigines lived outside the republic until reservations were allotted to them, reservations which they largely continue to live apart in today.

Frankly, the tone of the parent article smacks of 1960s-era Baby Boomer coming-of-age politics. Its high time to question this line of thinking.

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