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The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

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Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#11

Post by sveme »

b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

Replace "America" with "Germany" and "Eastern Europe" and consider whether you would like to uphold your position.

The author's point was that the common narrative of European settlers colonizing an empty continent, alternatively European colonists bringing civilization to wild, barren lands has to be extended with European settlers bringing mass extermination to the indigenous population, through many different means.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#12

Post by kghose »

trextrex wrote: post #9
b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

I think what the author is saying is that the history taught in schools and colleges should not omit the part about the how the lands were acquired from the native americans.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny political agenda.

It's interesting to me how we finally got rid of Original Sin, but now have replaced this with other, atheistic forms of this, like trying to make our children feel guilty about Native Americans and Slavery. I personally think this is the best way to increase tensions.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#13

Post by trextrex »

kghose wrote: post #12
trextrex wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the author is saying is that the history taught in schools and colleges should not omit the part about the how the lands were acquired from the native americans.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny…

Yes. Ideally history taught in schools should present all sides in an unbiased manner without leaving parts out and go all the way to the present. But it happens all too often that parts of history are left out because of political agendas, ignorance, or lack of data. My understanding of the article is that the auther is pointing out one part of history that is consistently not taught (but should be).

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#14

Post by atlantic »

b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

So presumably, if some foreign power invaded the US next week, violently exterminated most of the population, and herded the survivors into a few tracts of land, you would be fine with that? After all, land changes hands continuously.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#15

Post by arethuza »

kghose wrote: post #12
trextrex wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the author is saying is that the history taught in schools and colleges should not omit the part about the how the lands were acquired from the native americans.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny…

Well, one possible perspective is that during a lot of the 20th century the US held itself to be morally superior to the "colonial" powers as they didn't have an empire.

However, the US - like Russia, didn't colonize other "nations" it appears to have mostly completely supplanted them in the areas it grew into.

Of course, this is only of historical interest, but as a wise man once wrote: "Who controls the past controls the future".

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#16

Post by mercurial »

kghose wrote: post #12
trextrex wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the author is saying is that the history taught in schools and colleges should not omit the part about the how the lands were acquired from the native americans.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny…

Children (and adults) should, as much as possible, get the entire picture. Even if it means acknowledging that, yes, the former national narrative of the brave conquest of the West by proud white immigrants is less than accurate.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#17

Post by jasonisalive »

kghose wrote: post #12
trextrex wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the author is saying is that the history taught in schools and colleges should not omit the part about the how the lands were acquired from the native americans.

And the OPs point is that we should not stop there either, because it is an arbitrary point in history. Also, as the number of immigrants increase in US schools, White guilt and other forms of self flagellation lessens. If you are not European, and your parent immigrated you have less of a complex about where the land came from, and are less likely to want to carry some burden foisted on you by some one with a funny…

Sorry, this article is about taking responsibility. Criticising the tribal struggles of the people you dispossessed, exterminated and then wrote out of history, as if there's some sort of moral equivalence in play here, that's the worst form of evading responsibility. White people had the choice to steal land and dispossess, they chose to do it. White people had the choice to buy land that had been stolen and ignore its provencance, they chose to do that. White people should deal with their crimes.

And as far as more modern immigrants? Sorry, people knowingly chose to immigrate to a land which has been stolen. Again, there's a choice to do the right thing or not, and people are choosing to do the wrong thing. People should take responsibility, full stop.

The history and deeds of the native tribes of America have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the current invading population. No non-native American has the moral right to even allude to it, let alone point fingers and try and force moral equivocations. It's the worst form of hypocrisy.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#18

Post by b6 »

sveme wrote: post #11
b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

Replace "America" with "Germany" and "Eastern Europe" and consider whether you would like to uphold your position. The author's point was that the common narrative of European settlers colonizing an empty continent, alternatively European colonists bringing civilization to wild, barren lands has to be extended with European settlers bringing mass extermination to the indigenous population, through many different mean…

I don't think I'm strongly pushing any particular position -- I think the author is, and I'm asking why.

Basically, what makes this particular story of human savagery, out of all of them, crucial right now? If it's high time for Americans to acknowledge that the US is built on someone else's land, is it also time for everyone else in every other country to do the same thing? Is there any country whose borders don't include territory that used to belong to people of some other ethnicity or culture?

Are we even sure we understand how to determine who really owns what piece of land? I'm genuinely asking. It seems very basic, but I don't know how to answer it.

Please note, I'm not trying to claim that any particular instance of violence was alright because everybody else was being violent too. Without a doubt, it was appalling, atrocious savagery, and will hopefully never be repeated. It's just that, in the field of appalling, atrocious savagery, there's a lot of competition.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#19

Post by jasonisalive »

b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

America has long held itself up as "better" than other countries - more virtuous, more wise, more free, more advanced, etc. etc.

When you actually look into it you see: a) the utterly brutal dispossession and extermination of a weak and technologically primitive existing population b) the callous and self-serving enslavation of vast numbers of people c) vicious and destructive interference in weak countries across the 20th and 21st century to facilitate the wholesale theft of natural resources.

I'm not saying that the rest of the world doesn't have its own sins, or that any other country would have been particularly better if they had the opportunities that America has had, but please, get down off your high horse. The ignorance and self-infatuation of American people is why they are so widely hated.

Re: The Invasion of America: New Visualizations of Native American Dispossession

#20

Post by b6 »

jasonisalive wrote: post #19
b6 wrote: post #7

> It is high time for non-Native Americans to come to terms with the fact that the United States is built on someone else's land. Land has been changing hands more or less continuously, forever. Before North America was "seized" by the people who came to be called Americans, parts of it were being seized and re-seized and re-re-seized by various groups of people who lived there at that time. What is the author's reas…

America has long held itself up as "better" than other countries - more virtuous, more wise, more free, more advanced, etc. etc. When you actually look into it you see: a) the utterly brutal dispossession and extermination of a weak and technologically primitive existing population b) the callous and self-serving enslavation of vast numbers of people c) vicious and destructive interference in weak countries across th…

I don't think I'm on a high horse. I'm actually extremely critical of the US. Rereading my comment, is it possible you attributed viewpoints to me that I didn't actually express?
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