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Je Suis Charlie

charliehebdo.fr

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Re: Je Suis Charlie

#191

Post by majestic1211 »

DanBC wrote: post #185
mercer wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how this is the same thing. Can you elaborate?

Why is it okay to print shitty zero-value cartoons that are anti-Muslim[1] but not print shitty zero-value cartoons that are anti-Jew or anti-other-minority? [1] and these cartoons are anti-Muslim, pushing ignorance and bigotry.

Charlie Hebdo is not anti-Muslim. It is a satiric paper, and hits on everyone, including Muslims. No one had a special treatment with them.

Source : Am french, and actually read the Charlie Hebdo. You can also check here, for example : http://qz.com/322550/charlie-hebdo-has-had-more-legal-run-in...

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#192

Post by sacado2 »

arcatek wrote: post #141
tribaal wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a small precision (I am French and following media closely): - Two people assaulted the office, and killed 10, wounded 11 (4 of which considered critical). - They furthermore killed 2 police officers on their way out, one of them point blank as he lay wounded and was asking for mercy (do yourself a favor and don't look at that witness video. I mean it. NSFL). - They are on the loose and are reported armed with a…

It's important to also note that they have killed four of the main illustrators of the paper. It will be very hard for them to overcome that. However, the others french papers are trying to help the redaction, so maybe Charlie will live.

It will probably survive, actually. Many people will buy the journal in the next few weeks, even if they never read it before. There are many talentuous cartoonists that can help for a few months if needed. And even without that, how could the French government let that journal fail in the next weeks ? It would be a very negative symbol; that would mean "they" won.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#193

Post by mieses »

mieses wrote: post #169
mercurial wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I agree, it's just that the impression the FT tries to give ("Charlie Hebdo, the newspaper specialized in Muslim-baiting") is wrong. Hopefully nobody reading this thinks it's entirely reasonable to shoot people for a drawing.

But they are supposed to be free to practice their religion, which means shooting people for a drawing. Maybe religious freedom should not extend to psychopathic ideologies just as freedom to bear arms does not extend to personal nuclear weapons.

Wasn't the act of shooting a religious practice? You may choose to rationalize a separation of religion from its inevitable outcomes. They don't.

Edit: You also twisted my statement. I asked whether the freedom should extend to the ideology. You twisted it around and stated that the freedom does not extend to shooting people. You're hiding from the issue.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#194

Post by mercer »

sg47 wrote: post #183
mercer wrote: post #64

My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. I really, really hope that people from different muslim communities speak up as well. In past incidents there was a lot of silence, usually prompted by fear (I suspect). I understand if they don't, but I hope they…

Muslims speaking up about this will not be enough. If they really condemn this, they should post these cartoons on their Facebook walls, newspapers, etc. That's the only way to show where they stand.

I disagree. It's one thing to condemn violence perpetrated in the name of your faith. It's quite another to post cartoons that openly blaspheme it.

Failing to see the difference between the two and posing it as a black or white issue only feeds fundamentalism. As much as I applaud freedom of expression above all else, I do not expect everyone to express this in the same manner, and I do not condemn those who take issue with, to them, blasphemous cartoons without proposing violence as a solution.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#195

Post by sacado2 »

nkantar wrote: post #60
dankohn1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And "Je Suis Charlie" echoes Kennedy's famous line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

Please tell me "Charlie" refers to something hilarious, much like "ein Berliner" meant "a donut", more/less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mu02xUgE4k (Don't mean to take away from the gravity of the situation — merely wanted to share a good laugh.)

I'm French. There is no hidden pun (at least perceptible by French speakers), sorry.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#196

Post by forgotAgain »

discardorama wrote: post #134

308 points in 2 hours and 121 comments... and listed at #24. Ranked below stories like: 2. 121 points, 3 hours ago , 26 comments 3. 69 points , 2 hours ago , 22 comments 5. 138 points, 4 hours ago , 33 comments 8. 80 points , 4 hours ago , 28 comments 9. 46 points , 3 hours ago , 10 comments 10. 56 points , 3 hours ago , 19 comments Looks like it's being flagged left and right. Why? What if, instead of Charlie, it wa…

Seems to be residual of the over reaction to the numerous postings related to the Snowden document releases.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#197

Post by sacado2 »

DanBC wrote: post #185
mercer wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how this is the same thing. Can you elaborate?

Why is it okay to print shitty zero-value cartoons that are anti-Muslim[1] but not print shitty zero-value cartoons that are anti-Jew or anti-other-minority? [1] and these cartoons are anti-Muslim, pushing ignorance and bigotry.

This picture (taken from Charlie Hebdo, and drawn by one of the murdered cartoonist) is as "anti-jew" as "anti-muslim". The title says that those two minorities cannot be mocked.

http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2012/09/Charlie-Hebdo-Intouch...

They drew many anti-catholic pictures, too. They never especially attacked muslims more than other communities.

http://p1.storage.canalblog.com/19/22/177230/100853043.png

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#198

Post by pbhjpbhj »

DanBC wrote: post #190
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the value of printing a shitty cartoon is worth causing deep offence to very many people // Mostly they're choosing to be offended, they're seeking out something to be offended by. It's a case of "we want to be violent against people who oppose our views, so we'll look and find things we can call offensive and use that to justify murder and violence". It's behaviour that seems very true to the war-lord that inspire…

I'm not talking about extremists but about the vast majority of moderate Muslims. And it's not just "offence" - this type of material promotes ignorance and fear and it marginalises and already marginalised minority.

The vast majority of muslims surely don't read Charlie Hebdo or similar satirical cartoons - how then can they be offended by them? The offence seemingly lies in society allowing people to hold views contrary to their religion. Even if you kowtow to that desire and implemented sharia in Western Europe there are seemingly enough Sunni and Shia willing to blow one another up that it's not going to prevent violent atrocities in the name of Islam.

I don't understand how such satirising "promotes ignorance and fear" however, can you explain that? Surely the point of satire is cast a critical light on things in order to dispel what the satirist sees as ignorance.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#199

Post by _almosnow »

julie1 wrote: post #158
baby wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

note that everyone is quoting Charb on this, sometimes just quoting the "I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees" that is actually him quoting someone else: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata

weired in my old greek lessons it was already said to be the motto of Athen. http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3824 Maybe Zappata went to school and studied the story of Athen?

Cars and mortgages... the Greeks sure were really ahead of their time.

Edit: Yeah sure, downvote me instead of the guy that is posting nonsense...

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#200

Post by Jayd2014 »

mercer wrote: post #129
gohrt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what most Muslims think about Charlie Hebdo Maybe ask most Muslims, not some self-appointed leaders?

At least here in Holland, many muslims form communities, often centered around cultural and religious centers. These communities tend to have leaders and/or spokespeople. These people can speak on behalf of the community. They are not (necessarily) self-appointed. In my experience, here, the moderate muslims are often rather quiet, perhaps out of fear. In general, they do not support extremism and fear non-muslim ext…

A Muslim here.

> the moderate muslims are often rather quiet.

Yes we are. But there are a few reasons for that:

1- First, Muslims can't be put in one group, there is 1.6 billion muslims worldwide with hundreds of different views and levels of tolerance.

2- Most of them don't have time or are too busy with their daily life. Think about the % of people who go vote every four years in a democracy. 30% maybe 50% at max vote, the rest can't be bothered because they are busy with their daily problems. Add to that that most Muslims live in a third world country, so they have enough problems already.

3- The first people affected by terrorism in term of body counts and extremism in general are Muslims themselves. Did you know for example that ISIS consider the previous president of egypt (Mursi) who is from the muslim brotherhood to be an infidel who need to be killed.

4- People in Muslim countries are getting numb to all this news reports because they are used to it. I remember when I was a kid watching Arab TV news showing people dying in Palestine and at one time the TV commentator laughed. She then said she was sorry and she didn't mean to laugh at what was happening. Most Arabs/Muslim who care about what's going on the Middle East have already watched too much death to react to it.

5- Some people do want to go to the street and demonstrate against this blood shed but they are not allowed by their local governments. They fear that this could turn in a revolt. Arab spring says hi.

6- There have been hundreds if not thousands of condemnation an protests by muslims all over the world but the media don't cover them much because they don't fit the narrative of evil muslims.

Me as a Muslim I'm ashamed of what is happening and wish this Scumbugs are captured and put to justice. I see to much politic invested in terrorism that I know it's about power not about religion. I also do believe we muslims failed big time to adapt to the 21st century and need to wake up and get our acts together.

I'm really sorry for the families of the victims and I hope they capture the scums who did this.

There was an interesting discussion on reddit about this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/el...

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