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Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

nytimes.com

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Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#11

Post by chipgap98 »

Steltek wrote: post #8
byerley wrote: post #3

As someone who fancies libertarianism but who's wary of its effectiveness in practice, I'm hoping we get to see this impromptu social experiment play out long enough to gather some useful statistics.

Err, extreme things like that really need to be entered into democratically rather than a very small minority foisting it on a city of millions. Especially when we're discussing public safety. I hope this ends quickly and conclusively.

They are still handling serious crimes normally. What they aren't doing is enforcing arrest, ticket, and summons quotas. I think this whole thing is going to backfire on the NYPD and demonstrate that the way they were doing things before was not in the best interest of the people living in NYC.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#12

Post by Zigurd »

Spooky23 wrote: post #2

New York public employees cannot strike, so this is the labor action available to them. The union should think carefully though. If life just goes on without the nanny-state tickets and other revenue generators, the thought process may change. Maybe more fare jumping and double-parking would be ok, and we can live with that -- but with 10,000 fewer policemen. 10,000 * $100,000 = less need for ticket revenue.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#15

Post by pionar »

Zigurd wrote: post #12
Spooky23 wrote: post #2

New York public employees cannot strike, so this is the labor action available to them. The union should think carefully though. If life just goes on without the nanny-state tickets and other revenue generators, the thought process may change. Maybe more fare jumping and double-parking would be ok, and we can live with that -- but with 10,000 fewer policemen. 10,000 * $100,000 = less need for ticket revenue.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

Most of the shiny toys' cost (capex, training, maintenance) is not paid by the NYPD, but through grants/subsidies from the Department of Homeland Security's anti-terrorism programs.

So, cutting that would be great, but wouldn't do much for NYPD's bottom line.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#16

Post by pdabbadabba »

Spooky23 wrote: post #2

New York public employees cannot strike, so this is the labor action available to them. The union should think carefully though. If life just goes on without the nanny-state tickets and other revenue generators, the thought process may change. Maybe more fare jumping and double-parking would be ok, and we can live with that -- but with 10,000 fewer policemen. 10,000 * $100,000 = less need for ticket revenue.

I agree that this is not about the most serious infractions (though it should be noted that even arrests for violent crimes are down, just not so drastically). But we're not just talking about "nanny-state tickets" either. We're talking about plummeting arrests or tickets for robbery, fare-evasion, DWI, parking violations, and moving violations (speeding, running red lights, etc.), among other things. I don't see any future where the citizens of New York decide that enforcing traffic laws was just a failed social experiment. I think we're just seeing the entirely predictable lag between decreased (or nonexistent) enforcement, and the social consequences.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#17

Post by krschultz »

Zigurd wrote: post #12
Spooky23 wrote: post #2

New York public employees cannot strike, so this is the labor action available to them. The union should think carefully though. If life just goes on without the nanny-state tickets and other revenue generators, the thought process may change. Maybe more fare jumping and double-parking would be ok, and we can live with that -- but with 10,000 fewer policemen. 10,000 * $100,000 = less need for ticket revenue.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

I generally agree with the sentiment that police are overbuying toys, but if there is any city where the police are justified in having that kind of stuff, it's New York. The terrorists are not going to attack St Louis Missouri, but they have attacked New York multiple times.

I say this having just seen the NYPD bomb squad show up to investigate a bag outside my apartment this morning.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#18

Post by Spooky23 »

Shivetya wrote: post #5

If these minor offenses are not affecting crime then are they offenses whose only purpose is to generate revenue? If the city has not imploded then is that not sufficient evidence to get a discussion about the existence of these offenses?

There's two sides to the coin.

My dad worked for NYC during the Dinkins administration, which took a stance of not antagonizing the population with minor tickets and citations. His big story about the downside of this approach was a major snowstorm, which crippled the city in many areas. In his case, he was stuck at work at a public housing project for 3 days with the residents, because the city didn't ticket parking violations and the plows couldn't clear the clogged streets.

It made life miserable for the residents as well. Broken elevators left the elderly trapped in high-rise buildings for days. People with medical emergencies had to be carried by fireman down the stairs and down the street to an ambulance on an avenue.

One of the reasons for the current practice in NYC is the Mayor Giuliani did a complete 180 and aggressively enforced all sorts of laws. Chaos transitioned to order. The optimal answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#19

Post by pdabbadabba »

krschultz wrote: post #14

I think it is a bit too soon to tell what will happen. Keep in mind it has also been bitterly cold, crime is generally down when the weather is like this no matter what.

It is bitterly cold this week, but it hasn't been the two weeks prior. And the article itself includes the relevant reported crime statistics. They're down a little from this week last year, but nothing like the decrease in summonses.

Check out the infographics.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#20

Post by pdabbadabba »

j_m_b wrote: post #7

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have become over-criminalized and over-monitored by an increasingly growing police force and that we simply don't need so many officers and laws. This would be a good thing in America. However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of peopl…

> However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people.

Amen. I also hate that this was brought about by, it would seem, police officers pouting about the public and the mayor finally speaking out against biased policing.

Edit: I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way, but none of us are perfect, and these biases can be hard to suppress. But in the face of ample evidence that these biases are needlessly getting people killed (or, even more prevalently, to be disproportionately imprisoned), a police department has a duty to do something about it. I suspect this "something" will be a combination of training, change of internal culture (easier said then done), and altered tactics.

I wish we could have a dialogue where we admit that biased policing is a problem, but simultaneously refrain from painting all cops as racist brutes. I see our present predicament, though, as a result of cops' failing to see past the names they've been called by the angriest voices out there (not by the mayor, I might add) to the fact that there really is a problem in their departments that is causing unconscionable harm to black communities.

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