Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#181

Post by shanusmagnus » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

justinpaulson wrote: post #168

Thought I would weigh in as I have a personal interest and history with fasting. I once fasted for 25 days on nothing but water. I biked to class and work daily during the fast. After a couple days, hunger cravings disappeared. After two weeks I began to gain a mental clarity that I had not encountered before. I would get a head rush when I stood up too quickly after about 15'r days, but this was remedied by taking a…

The mental clarity you mention is interesting. Did you by any chance do stuff during that stretch that would give a more objective mental performance -- meaning, was there a quantitative way for you to evaluate your 'mental clarity'?

I ask because I've water-fasted for two days on several occasions, and I've always broken because the mental handicap was just too much, and I've had work to do.[1] In particular, I've found that writing code and writing research papers is almost impossible on day 2.

However, I've wondered if either a) pushing through it, or b) keto-adapting beforehand might prevent the mental slowness. I know a superstar scientist who claims that he thinks better in ketosis, so presumably the mechanism for pushing through it would be to get to the point of keto-adaptation.

[1] Well, that's kind of a copout. I could always do it while on vacation or something. So mental handicap + willpower.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#182

Post by shanusmagnus » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 9:14 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #155

maxxxxx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tends to be cheaper?

That's not a valid generalization. In this case, negative value of the secondary health hazards, loss of enjoyment, and discomfort experienced during fasting might exceed the cost of the drug treatment.

Well, if that's your logic then un-modeled externalities and other physiological disruptions should be taken into account, which are likely to be much more salient than in the case of simply not eating.

Fasting is, in fact, about the most reasonable and conservative 'treatment' imaginable since it's been in active deployment for the last however-many million years across diverse phyla.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#183

Post by knappador » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 1:27 AM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #147

knappador wrote: post #140

The word "regenerate" has got to be a bit of a stretch. It's not like decades of DNA mutations are going away. I've done fasts on relatively nothing for over five days. Early on, you get some "empty-stomach intelligence" where your mind is just more alert because of plenty of oxygen (from not digesting) and probably some evolution that favored apes that got observant and driven when hungry as opposed to lazy. Fasting…

> basically you want to have a small supply of starches to keep your skeletal muscle from breaking down to feed your brain But starvation in a healthy person takes 10-40 days to kick in, with 30 days being way more common than 10. Before that, you're just ketogenic. Everything I read, and my personal experience, leads me to believe that the only muscle that breaks down is that which is not used (which is compatible w…

Go correct Wiki.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#184

Post by thret » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 3:31 PM UTC

jqm wrote: post #165

thret wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have it backwards. The 'brutal cruelty and outright ridiculousness' of blood sacrifice is the whole point of Christianity. I realise Judaism has changed a lot, but in Jesus' time it was an unforgiving system. The death of Jesus was supposed to supplant all other kinds of sacrifice, and bring in a new system whereby you didn't need to atone for sins any more - you simply had to ask for forgiveness. When yo…

The three verses cited on blood atonement are from the NT. I realize the idea is that the blood of Jesus was supposed to end blood atonement and usher in a new era. However, I never thought this idea was reasonable, never identified with a God who would set such a system up, and never felt that this idea at the core of a religion would ultimately lead to positive outcomes or really much more than continued barbarism…

I just think Jesus was more or less successfully trying to fix all of the problems he saw with the religion he was born into. The OT God is quite evil (or at least does/allows/commands evil things). A God who doesn't require sacrifice, forgives sins as they are confessed and eschews violence is quite a step up.

Given what he had to work with I think he did pretty well.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#185

Post by justinpaulson » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 4:14 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #181

justinpaulson wrote: post #168

Thought I would weigh in as I have a personal interest and history with fasting. I once fasted for 25 days on nothing but water. I biked to class and work daily during the fast. After a couple days, hunger cravings disappeared. After two weeks I began to gain a mental clarity that I had not encountered before. I would get a head rush when I stood up too quickly after about 15'r days, but this was remedied by taking a…

The mental clarity you mention is interesting. Did you by any chance do stuff during that stretch that would give a more objective mental performance -- meaning, was there a quantitative way for you to evaluate your 'mental clarity'? I ask because I've water-fasted for two days on several occasions, and I've always broken because the mental handicap was just too much, and I've had work to do.[1] In particular, I've f…

I would say that day 2 is probably the hardest day. Day 3 was when I really started to feel almost normal, I lost cravings for food I mean. The craving and mental occupation of hunger is really distracting the first couple of days. After that you can focus more on your normal tasks without the constant nagging reminder that you are fasting. In fact, after about 12 days someone offered me a cookie at work and I almost took it and started eating it because it just completely skipped my mind that I had been fasting. I finally caught myself right before I started to eat it, but the hunger was so far gone from me that I wasn't mouth-wateringly rabid about eating a cookie, it was just like "sure, I'll take one" without a thought about it. So, I would probably say pushing through to at least day 3 or 4 would be worthwhile. If you steal feel handicapped after those days then it probably isn't for you.

I wish I had done some sort of quantitative test to see if this was beneficial. I was taking 3 summer classes and working 20-30 hours at a pizza place (yes, hand making pizza all day at Shakespeare's Pizza in Columbia, MO while I was fasting.) And I did well in the classes, but I wouldn't say they were the most challenging classes as far as math and science, it was two philosophy classes and one theoretical physics writing class that was a lot more theoretical than practical application and calculation. Perhaps next time I will take some sort of mental performance tests at each week interval and see if there is marked improvement or detriment.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#186

Post by shanusmagnus » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 8:46 PM UTC

justinpaulson wrote: post #185

shanusmagnus wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mental clarity you mention is interesting. Did you by any chance do stuff during that stretch that would give a more objective mental performance -- meaning, was there a quantitative way for you to evaluate your 'mental clarity'? I ask because I've water-fasted for two days on several occasions, and I've always broken because the mental handicap was just too much, and I've had work to do.[1] In particular, I've f…

I would say that day 2 is probably the hardest day. Day 3 was when I really started to feel almost normal, I lost cravings for food I mean. The craving and mental occupation of hunger is really distracting the first couple of days. After that you can focus more on your normal tasks without the constant nagging reminder that you are fasting. In fact, after about 12 days someone offered me a cookie at work and I almost…

Thanks for the feedback. Your classwork under fast is inspiring, since it sounds like it included some fairly diverse cognitive skills. In my case trying to write a paper was a really emphatic illustration that something weird was going on, since I could do other, simpler tasks without really noticing a difference. But creative, integrative work that required planning and holding multiple things in memory at once was like running into a tree.

The pizzeria thing, on the other hand, doesn't really surprise me. I worked in a pizzeria once, and my experience there (and from talking to other friends in fast food) was that the more time you spend in food prep, the less hungry you are. There might be eating out of impulse, but the hunger triggers seem to go away pretty quick.

I'd encourage you in your final sentiment, though: quantitative performance info on fasting would be really useful, and doesn't seem to exist in the literature. If you ever want to talk about it please PM me.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#187

Post by thret » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 8:45 AM UTC

jobposter1234 wrote: post #160

thret wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have it backwards. The 'brutal cruelty and outright ridiculousness' of blood sacrifice is the whole point of Christianity. I realise Judaism has changed a lot, but in Jesus' time it was an unforgiving system. The death of Jesus was supposed to supplant all other kinds of sacrifice, and bring in a new system whereby you didn't need to atone for sins any more - you simply had to ask for forgiveness. When yo…

> bring in a new system whereby you didn't need to atone for sins any more I believe the Biblical narrative describing the significance of Jesus' sacrifice was about past sins, that which humans bore without actually committing. I do not believe the death of Jesus in any way suggests, in Christian folklore, that you don't need to atone for sins. FWIW, I think the Catholic Church (which didn't exist until hundreds of…

My understanding is that Jesus' sacrifice was for all sins, past and future.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#188

Post by cLeEOGPw » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 12:41 PM UTC

solarmist wrote: post #126

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what OP had in mind about fasting, but I recall studies done on lab mouse related to this subject. Studies were about increasing average life expectancy. The results were that the only meaningful increase of life span was gained by limiting food ration. I don't think it was fasting, but amount of food consumed does seem to have significant effect. They claimed life expectancy increased up to 30%.

I remember that study. It was the basis of the intermittent fasting/restricted calories movement. Unfortunately they were unable to replicate it when they changed animals (I don't remember if the subsequent study was on primates or humans).

Interesting. That would explain why it isn't seen mentioned much anywhere nowdays.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#189

Post by hueving » Mon, Jan 12, 2015, 4:01 AM UTC

anglican1549 wrote: post #128

hueving wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bad assumption to start with because there is no evidence of such a thing. "just for the sake of argument, let's assume there are invisible horses everywhere. (followed by explanation of how these horses are responsible for love)"

Your epistemology and categories are already flawed, as if there's an analogy between a thing (like a horse) and the Ground of Being (classically called "God"). God in classical theism is not a "thing" among things. If you think classical theism posits deity the same way people posit horses, of course you'll want "evidence" that is empirical. So wouldn't it be helpful, for the sake of the thought experiment proposed…

>God in classical theism is not a "thing" among things.

Neither is an invisible horse. These all fall under the category of things that there is no physical evidence for.

>So wouldn't it be helpful, for the sake of the thought experiment proposed by shawndumas, to at least see where his reasoning leads?

No, because his entire premise is based on the existence of something that follows no logic or physical laws. Something that violates the laws of logic cannot be reasoned about.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#190

Post by hueving » Mon, Jan 12, 2015, 4:04 AM UTC

shawndumas wrote: post #141

hueving wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bad assumption to start with because there is no evidence of such a thing. "just for the sake of argument, let's assume there are invisible horses everywhere. (followed by explanation of how these horses are responsible for love)"

a valid argument is valid apart from the truth of its premises [1]. I am perfectly happy to agree that an argument's construction is formally valid and still deny it's conclusion. all sound arguments are valid but not all valid arguments are sound. so I ask; in what way is my argument invalid? ----- [1]: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity#Validity_and_soundne...

>so I ask; in what way is my argument invalid?

I never said it was. I said it had a bad assumption, which makes the whole thing entirely pointless and self-serving.

Entering a debate where you make your arguments using the form "Assume I am right about the thing we are debating. Now here are all of the logical conclusions of that." is completely worthless because nobody cares about the logical conclusions when the argument is about the part you are taking under assumption.