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What Do We Want, Really?

thefrailestthing.com

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Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#21

Post by avz »

tjradcliffe wrote: post #15

Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"? I'm perfectly willing to pay the price of living the way I do, and so are a great many people here. Most of us have given the technologies we use some thought and selected the ones we use to maximize benefit and minimize cost. There's no data presented in the article, just some guy's so…

It seems to me that the Amish approach starts with prejudice and outright rejection and leaves no scope for experimentation and trial dry runs of new tech. The author of the article urges reflection, but completely misses the importance of experimentation.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#22

Post by jal278 »

tjradcliffe wrote: post #15

Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"? I'm perfectly willing to pay the price of living the way I do, and so are a great many people here. Most of us have given the technologies we use some thought and selected the ones we use to maximize benefit and minimize cost. There's no data presented in the article, just some guy's so…

> Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"?

This "we" encompasses nearly everyone living in modern society as a consumer. Recall a past motto of McDonald's: "Have it your way." Whether we're aware of it our not, this sort of message seeps into one's psyche. We become accustomed to convenience and adept at ignoring uncomfortable truths.

As a result we don't often undertake the dramatic life changes required for us to live in a way that agrees with our root moral beliefs. For example, it is difficult to morally defend factory farms if one is against needless suffering and would rail against someone kicking a puppy.

Imagine that whenever you wanted to eat an egg you first walked through where that egg came from, observing whether it was a relatively content free-range chicken, or one so crowded by other chickens that it is caked in filth. The suffering would be in your face, and so difficult to ignore that you might actually change your purchasing behavior to alleviate your own discomfort.

However, just because such suffering is out of sight -- hidden by the neat packaging we encounter at the supermarket -- does not mean (of course) that it goes away. In truth, most of us are aware of the contradictions in how we live (myself included) but do not change our behavior. At our core we want convenience and comfort, and also to minimize our own suffering and that of others. But too often we focus only on what is easier (convenience and comfort) and ignore suffering that would require us to surrender even a bit of that comfort.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#23

Post by rdtsc »

elwell wrote: post #13
rdtsc wrote: post #11

Amish are very nice people, warm, friendly and with strong convictions. I was lucky to have been invited once to share a day with them (a visited a community in Ohio, had dinner, talked to them). But nevertheless ,the whole "no electricity" thing is crazy. Depending on the area there are workshops devoted in converting electrical appliances to pneumatic power. Yes they take things like blenders, food processors, pull…

How did you get invited to share a day with them? I'm interested in doing the same.

A relative knew one of the Amish ministers.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#24

Post by rdtsc »

cfallin wrote: post #19
rdtsc wrote: post #11

Amish are very nice people, warm, friendly and with strong convictions. I was lucky to have been invited once to share a day with them (a visited a community in Ohio, had dinner, talked to them). But nevertheless ,the whole "no electricity" thing is crazy. Depending on the area there are workshops devoted in converting electrical appliances to pneumatic power. Yes they take things like blenders, food processors, pull…

> Then, of course, run compressed air (or vacuuum?) lines through their house. This is fascinating to me and I respect the dedication to principles that it demonstrates, independent of any logical arguments one could apply. I'm curious, where does the energy for the compressed air come from -- surely there's not an electric compressor out back? I had always understood the Amish philosophy re: electricity as an explic…

> surely there's not an electric compressor out back?

There is a diesel generator powering a compressor.

I believe (anyone please correct me here), this has started as a need to keep the milk (one of the top products sold by the Amish) cool. It was one of the government requirements for them to be able to sell it legally. So they basically desided that running a diesel generator powering a compressor somehow worked out ok.

Then someone had the idea to just use compressed air to deliver or store energy for other needs. Then a whole side business of converting electrical appliances to pneumatic power developed.

For example here is a picture I found of a pneumatic ceiling fan:

http://amishamerica.com/amish-ceiling-fan/

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#25

Post by JoeAltmaier »

rdtsc wrote: post #24
cfallin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, of course, run compressed air (or vacuuum?) lines through their house. This is fascinating to me and I respect the dedication to principles that it demonstrates, independent of any logical arguments one could apply. I'm curious, where does the energy for the compressed air come from -- surely there's not an electric compressor out back? I had always understood the Amish philosophy re: electricity as an explic…

> surely there's not an electric compressor out back? There is a diesel generator powering a compressor. I believe (anyone please correct me here), this has started as a need to keep the milk (one of the top products sold by the Amish) cool. It was one of the government requirements for them to be able to sell it legally. So they basically desided that running a diesel generator powering a compressor somehow worked o…

The Amish are not about low-tech; they're about self-sufficiency.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#26

Post by avz »

jal278 wrote: post #22
tjradcliffe wrote: post #15

Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"? I'm perfectly willing to pay the price of living the way I do, and so are a great many people here. Most of us have given the technologies we use some thought and selected the ones we use to maximize benefit and minimize cost. There's no data presented in the article, just some guy's so…

> Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"? This "we" encompasses nearly everyone living in modern society as a consumer. Recall a past motto of McDonald's: "Have it your way." Whether we're aware of it our not, this sort of message seeps into one's psyche. We become accustomed to convenience and adept at ignoring uncomfortable…

I wonder if this apparent contradiction can't be explained by re-examination of one the assumptions we're making. Namely, we assume human being is a singular, consistent self with a coherent set of goals. Perhaps, we're not. Perhaps, we're a bunch of more or less independent modules evolved for different purposes and activated in different circumstances. One module seeks to maximize convenience and pleasure. Another one to pass moral judgements. By eliminating direct exposure to the way chicken are treated we keep the moral unit offline while the convenience-seeker in us gets the best deal.

Vast literature from ancient Greece till modern day describe inner struggles that suggest humans may not actually have a coherent set of values and goals at all.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#27

Post by gumby »

avz wrote: post #21
tjradcliffe wrote: post #15

Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"? I'm perfectly willing to pay the price of living the way I do, and so are a great many people here. Most of us have given the technologies we use some thought and selected the ones we use to maximize benefit and minimize cost. There's no data presented in the article, just some guy's so…

It seems to me that the Amish approach starts with prejudice and outright rejection and leaves no scope for experimentation and trial dry runs of new tech. The author of the article urges reflection, but completely misses the importance of experimentation.

> It seems to me that the Amish approach starts with prejudice and outright rejection

This statement seems extraordinary and contrary to their practice. They simply see everything through the lens of their extremist faith. I think they are nuts but I respect their approach.

For example, they often do have telephones. Many villages have one phone in a phone booth in the middle of the town. So everyone can see you use it. You can't hang out and impersonally communicate -- instead you stop by and visit in person. But if they need an ambulance, or to do a business deal with someone outside their community, they can.

They also will use some power tools, though they don't want them to be electric. I don't quite understand the reasoning, but whatever. Apparently there was a lot of experimentation, and not everybody chose the same solution.

They also let their teen agers leave the community and get drunk crash cars etc. Amazingly to me a majority decide to go back into the fold. Every adult has made a conscious choice to be observant.

In a small way many of use use the same process (though hopefully from a different starting point and with different parameters). I love my MBP but the app I run most is Emacs. I know what an IDE is but don't see the point. I laugh when I see reviews of iOS apps that are described as "visually stunning" -- typically they have a low information density and slow interface, which makes them unpleasant to me. This doesn't make me a luddite nor does it make IDE (for instance) fans nitwits -- we simply find different local optima in the possibility space.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#29

Post by jackpirate »

elwell wrote: post #13
rdtsc wrote: post #11

Amish are very nice people, warm, friendly and with strong convictions. I was lucky to have been invited once to share a day with them (a visited a community in Ohio, had dinner, talked to them). But nevertheless ,the whole "no electricity" thing is crazy. Depending on the area there are workshops devoted in converting electrical appliances to pneumatic power. Yes they take things like blenders, food processors, pull…

How did you get invited to share a day with them? I'm interested in doing the same.

I spent a weekend with a [Bruderhof](http://www.bruderhof.com/) community. It's basically the same thing as the Amish. I just asked :) They're very welcoming.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#30

Post by foolrush »

avz wrote: post #26
jal278 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Claims like the one that "we" want what we cannot possibly have at the price "we" are willing to pay are tiresome. Who is this "we"? This "we" encompasses nearly everyone living in modern society as a consumer. Recall a past motto of McDonald's: "Have it your way." Whether we're aware of it our not, this sort of message seeps into one's psyche. We become accustomed to convenience and adept at ignoring uncomfortable…

I wonder if this apparent contradiction can't be explained by re-examination of one the assumptions we're making. Namely, we assume human being is a singular, consistent self with a coherent set of goals. Perhaps, we're not. Perhaps, we're a bunch of more or less independent modules evolved for different purposes and activated in different circumstances. One module seeks to maximize convenience and pleasure. Another…

“Namely, we assume human being is a singular, consistent self with a coherent set of goals. Perhaps, we're not.”

Perhaps?

There is a solid twenty-five years of sociology that dismiss the collective “we” as nothing more than privilege and oppression.

See Postcolonial theory, for example.

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