Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 196 posts

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#101

Post by zo1 »

fw109 wrote: post #95

This is my perspective as a much-maligned foreign worker. I lost the lottery of birth, and was born to lower middle class parents in a third world country. But I worked hard in school, and got a scholarship at a respected private university in the US. I worked hard in college, and got a decent offer from a big tech company. When I start next year right after graduating, I will earn more in one year than my father ear…

>"So for those of you with inflated senses of self-worth complaining about people like me, why don't you go cry to your mommy about how you should have taken a Wall Street job instead, so that you could have earned a lot more money while fucking over the world economy. Because fuck the rest of the world, right?"

You're more than welcome to cut your upcoming now-1st-world salary that you boast about and give most of it to a third-world charity or something. Because otherwise, you're also saying "fuck the rest of the world". When you understand why you won't do that, then you'll understand why others won't as well. No, seriously, you can't just ask others to do good, you have to do good yourself as well. Until then, all you're saying is that you expect others to take a hit in their advantage so that your opinions on what matters are satisfied. Without even considering that maybe they're doing what they think matters already, and all you're really complaining about is that it's not the same as yours.

Edit. I'd like to add something about your "birth-lottery" comment.

>"I lost the lottery of birth, and was born to lower middle class parents in a third world country."

I don't agree at all. If anything, you WON the "lottery" over probably billions of other people, ones that are born into families that do not support their offspring as much as it sounds like yours did to you. You may not be lucky enough to be born in a fancy 1st world country, but that's just entirely besides the point because you're succeeding, despite your claim that you lost some imaginary lottery.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#102

Post by mkozlows »

morgante wrote: post #87
selmnoo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that it's impossible to produce more senior developers in a 1-2 year timeframe, what alternatives do people suggest to immigration? Why do we operate under the assumption that these companies are entitled to as many unicorns as they want? Why shouldn't they just go out of business? After the whole collusion ordeal when it became abundantly clear that on one side there are VCs, founders, and C-levels who work…

The world isn't nearly as binary as that. I'm not a VC or founder. I'm a developer just like you, trying to deliver cool products—but doing so requires more developers. If my company was trying to suppress wages, or refused to pay above market, then I'd agree with you that we have no right to ask for more talent. But we're perfectly willing to pay for talent—we just can't find any. I wouldn't be surprised if the numb…

So the thing is, I share your general opinion -- there is a legit shortage of talented developers, and it's hard to find them.

BUT: I guarantee you that there is in fact a wage and benefits package you can offer that would get you more good applicants. Maybe it's more money (sure, "above market" is nice, but I'm not going to leave a job for $5K more than my "market" rate -- but for $50K more, well, let's talk). Maybe it's perks and benefits (the Google package, for instance).

Whatever it is, there is absolutely money you can spend that would end up getting you noticeably more applicants one way or the other. That the company doesn't WANT to spend that money is exactly what bothers people.

And yes, yes, it's all well and good to say that developers are paid and treated well -- they are -- but if their talent and skill is really that rare and that in-demand, maybe they should be paid and treated even better.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#103

Post by PhoenixWright »

Training is a big problem in tech. When I graduated college two years ago I couldn't find an entry level job anywhere. Every company wanted at least 1 year of experience. I finally found a place that would give me a shot but also massively underpaid me. Two years later and I am a dev lead on a major project and they are begging me to stay (although they refuse to give me more money). I'm actually getting calls from big valley companies that turned down my new grad app like nothing.

Why don't tech companies (or any company really) invest in their workers and help them attain new skills and career advancement?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#104

Post by morgante »

antiics wrote: post #100
morgante wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle, I agree with most commentators on HN that if there were actually a shortage we'd expect to see salaries rising. Yet, in practice, it does seem that there's simply an absolute shortage of experienced developers. I've been hiring developers at my job for most of the past year, yet we have never had an offer turned down. Rather, we see only a trickle of applicants, very few of whom are event remotely quali…

Who can I connect with on LinkedIn to learn more about open positions at your org?

Feel free to email morgante@cafe.com

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#105

Post by waterlesscloud »

morgante wrote: post #99
PhoenixWright wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am currently looking at jobs in NYC. With 2 years of experience I am fielding offers between 60k-80k in a cheap state to live in. Two comments above you make great points: (1) Developers should be making more than what they are and (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? That being said my point is if I had the 5+ years of experience you probably are looking for and was moving to NYC I would expect to b…

> (1) Developers should be making more than what they are As a developer, I'd love to agree with this. In fact, I do. But in our experience this isn't directly related to the talent shortage (again, we have never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate). > (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up…

You've never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate you've attracted to apply in the first place.

What about those you haven't?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#106

Post by santacluster »

fw109 wrote: post #95

This is my perspective as a much-maligned foreign worker. I lost the lottery of birth, and was born to lower middle class parents in a third world country. But I worked hard in school, and got a scholarship at a respected private university in the US. I worked hard in college, and got a decent offer from a big tech company. When I start next year right after graduating, I will earn more in one year than my father ear…

Although I am the son of an immigrant, am married to an immigrant and am a hiring manager who regularly hires migrant workers, I have no problem understanding anti-immigration sentiments when it comes to people with your attitude.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#107

Post by Terr_ »

hw wrote: post #14

Instead of a 'shortage of workers', the situation should be more adeptly described as a 'shortage of skilled workers'. I do think there are tech workers floating around, but the really good ones are hard to come by. Extending immigration helps, but does not solve it, as only a bunch of the pool are actually good talent. Maybe immigration needs to be tweaked to help filter down the pool even more, for example, raising…

> the really good ones are hard to come by

Perhaps "hard to accurately identify through an inefficient market"? Pretty much everybody has some horror stories about interviews and rejections unless they founded the company or got in through some side-channel relationship.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#108

Post by Terr_ »

zanny wrote: post #77
lotsofmangos wrote: post #6

I was working a minimum wage factory job in an area where it is very easy to get a job not that long ago, (it took 4 days from the phone call) and I asked my line manager if they had problems hiring. 'Yes', I was told, hiring was a major problem and keeping staff on was really difficult. I asked why they though that was. Apparently they think it is because state benefits are too high. edit - I'm still working it, I a…

I always have fun telling executives "how much are you spending each week?" "oh, so you aren't paying your employees even half that, and that is before taxes, rent, etc" "you have a labor shortage why, again?"

CTO flies back and forth from home every 2-3 weeks... Rest of company has travel freeze. Bah.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#109

Post by morgante »

mkozlows wrote: post #102
morgante wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world isn't nearly as binary as that. I'm not a VC or founder. I'm a developer just like you, trying to deliver cool products—but doing so requires more developers. If my company was trying to suppress wages, or refused to pay above market, then I'd agree with you that we have no right to ask for more talent. But we're perfectly willing to pay for talent—we just can't find any. I wouldn't be surprised if the numb…

So the thing is, I share your general opinion -- there is a legit shortage of talented developers, and it's hard to find them. BUT: I guarantee you that there is in fact a wage and benefits package you can offer that would get you more good applicants. Maybe it's more money (sure, "above market" is nice, but I'm not going to leave a job for $5K more than my "market" rate -- but for $50K more, well, let's talk). Maybe…

Okay, let's assume we were willing to offer substantially higher salaries than the market (though the practicalities of our funding certainly limits that to some degree).

How would we communicate said information in a way that doesn't actively distort the hiring process? When was the last time you saw a job ad with salary listed?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#110

Post by morgante »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #105
morgante wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) Developers should be making more than what they are As a developer, I'd love to agree with this. In fact, I do. But in our experience this isn't directly related to the talent shortage (again, we have never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate). > (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up…

You've never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate you've attracted to apply in the first place. What about those you haven't?

You're right that our biggest challenge is in getting people to apply in the first place.

What do you think is the highest value of deploying monetary and other resources to make that happen, given that publicly listing salaries is a non-starter?

Post reply on HN