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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#91

Post by beachstartup »

morgante wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #41

There's a huge "purple squirrel" problem. Employers expect to be able to hire someone who knows Drupal, PHP, and Ubuntu. They don't want to retrain someone who knows Methode, Java, and Red Hat, even those do the same job. Few employers have the capability to train any more. Whenever you encounter an employer whining about this, ask them "How many people do you have in offsite training right now?" If the answer is zer…

I don't know how you can realistically expect startups to invest in employee training.

we're a startup and we've sent multiple people to offsite training. in general it only costs a couple thousand bucks per class per employee including room and board.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#92

Post by hyp0 »

Yes, if the best engineers really have x100 or x1000 productivity, why aren't employers offering higher salaries?

There's been high-profile high-tech anti-poach collusion, and Ed Catmull (pixar) even claimed it's for the best. But without that, there would be implicit collusion anyway. It's obvious to employers that an arms-race to attract talent is not going to benefit anyone (who is an employer).

But what would happen if wages did rise to their natural level? First, it would attract people to the profession. Second, the most-profitable companies would end up with the best engineers because only they could afford to outbid everyone else (and resources end up in the hands of those most able to utilize them).

Startups, being poor, will find it difficult to attract excellent salaried, non-equity talent ("inequitable"?)

Thirdly and sadly, it would also mean less development work would occur (because it costs so much, and employers have limited money). But I have a feeling you'd end up with even more open source projects; and more people working on startups (to fill the gaps).

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#93

Post by cscurmudgeon »

selmnoo wrote: post #85
morgante wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle, I agree with most commentators on HN that if there were actually a shortage we'd expect to see salaries rising. Yet, in practice, it does seem that there's simply an absolute shortage of experienced developers. I've been hiring developers at my job for most of the past year, yet we have never had an offer turned down. Rather, we see only a trickle of applicants, very few of whom are event remotely quali…

> Given that it's impossible to produce more senior developers in a 1-2 year timeframe, what alternatives do people suggest to immigration? Why do we operate under the assumption that these companies are entitled to as many unicorns as they want? Why shouldn't they just go out of business? After the whole collusion ordeal when it became abundantly clear that on one side there are VCs, founders, and C-levels who work…

Wait, did startups participate in Collusion-gate? No.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#94

Post by morgante »

beachstartup wrote: post #91
morgante wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you can realistically expect startups to invest in employee training.

we're a startup and we've sent multiple people to offsite training. in general it only costs a couple thousand bucks per class per employee including room and board.

Interesting. Were they otherwise experienced developers who you just needed to train in your particular toolchain, or have you hired inexperienced developers and trained them to be more experienced?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#95

Post by fw109 »

This is my perspective as a much-maligned foreign worker. I lost the lottery of birth, and was born to lower middle class parents in a third world country. But I worked hard in school, and got a scholarship at a respected private university in the US. I worked hard in college, and got a decent offer from a big tech company. When I start next year right after graduating, I will earn more in one year than my father earns in five. Even with cost of living differences, I calculated that I will have a far better standard of living than I was used to.

Perhaps my university gave me the scholarship to boost its diversity figures. Perhaps my company is paying less than it would have to in some imaginary world in which foreign workers with H1Bs were not allowed -- then again, if that were the case, I would never get that job (I'm smart, but not "extraordinary" enough to get an O-1 visa). But it doesn't matter. Whatever the reasons, I stand to win, living a much better life than back home. So for those of you with inflated senses of self-worth complaining about people like me, why don't you go cry to your mommy about how you should have taken a Wall Street job instead, so that you could have earned a lot more money while fucking over the world economy. Because fuck the rest of the world, right?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#96

Post by plinkplonk »

cellis wrote: post #25
hw wrote: post #14

Instead of a 'shortage of workers', the situation should be more adeptly described as a 'shortage of skilled workers'. I do think there are tech workers floating around, but the really good ones are hard to come by. Extending immigration helps, but does not solve it, as only a bunch of the pool are actually good talent. Maybe immigration needs to be tweaked to help filter down the pool even more, for example, raising…

>> would that necessarily result in higher wages for everyone else? Unless companies like Google relocate ( to where? ) then yes, wages would absolutely rise, because they don't allow WFH [1], ergo the only engineers available would be those in the Bay Area, NYC, etc. No, they wouldn't outsource critical infrastructure to places like India or China, who hacked them. I also don't see them picking up and leaving and go…

Uhh India hacked Google?(I know about China). References? Google has an office in Bangalore and people here do work on "critical infrastructure".

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#97

Post by PhoenixWright »

morgante wrote: post #87
selmnoo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that it's impossible to produce more senior developers in a 1-2 year timeframe, what alternatives do people suggest to immigration? Why do we operate under the assumption that these companies are entitled to as many unicorns as they want? Why shouldn't they just go out of business? After the whole collusion ordeal when it became abundantly clear that on one side there are VCs, founders, and C-levels who work…

The world isn't nearly as binary as that. I'm not a VC or founder. I'm a developer just like you, trying to deliver cool products—but doing so requires more developers. If my company was trying to suppress wages, or refused to pay above market, then I'd agree with you that we have no right to ask for more talent. But we're perfectly willing to pay for talent—we just can't find any. I wouldn't be surprised if the numb…

I am currently looking at jobs in NYC. With 2 years of experience I am fielding offers between 60k-80k in a cheap state to live in. Two comments above you make great points: (1) Developers should be making more than what they are and (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor?

That being said my point is if I had the 5+ years of experience you probably are looking for and was moving to NYC I would expect to be making 150k+. Which if that is what you are offering, great. But if it's not then you can find the talent you are looking for, you just can't afford it.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#98

Post by wiredfool »

jacquesm wrote: post #68
wdewind wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, where do you get the "same risk" from? Edit: and I know we are both comparing anecdotal experiences, not asking for a repeat of that, I'm asking specifically for yours (or an expansion on your point of view). > It's simple math: the equity a founder gets is paid for with less cash than your salary downside as an early hire. I'm not sure why that matters. To me the only thing that matters is my salary downside…

The risk that the company folds hits the early employees just as hard as it hits the founders. Founders don't typically provide a whole lot of capital. Three guys meet in a room somewhere, hash out an idea, assign themselves CEO, CFO and COO, plunk $1000 on the table each, call each other 'founder', then get some funding and then hire you to implement their vision. Their risk is just about the same as yours, only you…

On the other hand, as engineer #1, I didn't personally guarantee any debits of the founder, nor was I the one the IRS was after for years for not paying payroll tax when money was tight.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#99

Post by morgante »

PhoenixWright wrote: post #97
morgante wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world isn't nearly as binary as that. I'm not a VC or founder. I'm a developer just like you, trying to deliver cool products—but doing so requires more developers. If my company was trying to suppress wages, or refused to pay above market, then I'd agree with you that we have no right to ask for more talent. But we're perfectly willing to pay for talent—we just can't find any. I wouldn't be surprised if the numb…

I am currently looking at jobs in NYC. With 2 years of experience I am fielding offers between 60k-80k in a cheap state to live in. Two comments above you make great points: (1) Developers should be making more than what they are and (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? That being said my point is if I had the 5+ years of experience you probably are looking for and was moving to NYC I would expect to b…

> (1) Developers should be making more than what they are

As a developer, I'd love to agree with this. In fact, I do. But in our experience this isn't directly related to the talent shortage (again, we have never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate).

> (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor?

I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up to $150k+.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#100

Post by antiics »

morgante wrote: post #84
sosuke wrote: post #2

Just on the subject of programmer salaries, I was talking with someone who had much more experience in the computing industry than myself and he pointed out something I'd never known. He said that programmer salaries from pre-bubble days was six-figures, and that we're still in that range, and not higher is proof that salaries have been kept low. Six-figures today is not what six-figures was worth in 1998. Inflation…

In principle, I agree with most commentators on HN that if there were actually a shortage we'd expect to see salaries rising. Yet, in practice, it does seem that there's simply an absolute shortage of experienced developers. I've been hiring developers at my job for most of the past year, yet we have never had an offer turned down. Rather, we see only a trickle of applicants, very few of whom are event remotely quali…

Who can I connect with on LinkedIn to learn more about open positions at your org?
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