Live data from Hacker News

Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

spectator.co.uk

31–40 of 65 posts

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#31
I've made this point before, but I feel compelled to repeat it in response to this post. The late Christopher Hitchens, in one of his greatest orations[1], made some excellent points about free speech:

...it’s not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard. It is the right of everyone in the audience to listen, and to hear. And every time you silence someone you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something. In other words: Your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved in all these cases as is the right of the other to voice his or her view.

In other words, freedom of speech is really about freedom of hearing. Later, he asks who should be trusted with the job of censoring:

Who's going to decide? To whom do you award the right to decide which speech is harmful or who is the harmful speaker, or to determine in advance what are the harmful consequences going to be, that we know enough about in advance to prevent? To whom would you give this job? To whom are you going to award the task of being the censor?

Did you hear any speaker in opposition to this motion (eloquent as... one of them was) to whom you would delegate the task of deciding for you, what you could read? To whom you'd give the job of deciding for you, relieve you of the responsibility of hearing what you might have to hear? Do you know anyone- hands up- to whom you would give this job? Does anyone have a nominee? You mean there's no one in Canada good enough to decide what I can read? Or hear? I had no idea... but there’s a law that says there must be such a person. Or there's a subsection of some piddling law that says it. Well to hell with that law then. It's inviting you to be liars and hypocrites and to deny what you evidently already know already.

And finally, he notes that religious texts contain passages that would need to be censored, yet religious conservatives often call for censorship.

Look anywhere you like for the warrant for slavery, for the subjugation of women as chattel, for the burning and flogging of homosexuals, for ethnic cleansing, for antisemitism, for all this you look no further than a famous book that's on every pulpit in this city and in every synagogue and in every mosque. And then just see whether you can square the fact that the force that is the main source of hatred is also the main caller for censorship. And when you've realized this you'll therefore this evening be faced with a gigantic false antithesis. I hope that still won't stop you from giving the motion before you the resounding endorsement that it deserves. Thanks awfully. Night-night. Stay cool!

(If you haven't watched the whole speech, I recommend doing so. I've only transcribed a few choice passages, but the whole thing is great.)

And of course, there's the absurdity factor. Nobody thinks that censoring actually stops people from endorsing verboten opinions or talking about banned topics. Everything just gets driven underground. This gives the holders of censored beliefs an excuse to behave more extremely than they otherwise would. After all, they're being persecuted.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIyBZNGH0TY#t=1240

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#32

I don't like the tone of his writing, but he's got some excellent points. I think that one of the greatest strengths of the university system is the idea that "offensive" ideas can be debated. An enormous amount of knowledge has been gotten from heresy, and I would argue that universities have been so central in the spread of knowledge precisely because they encourage (or at least tolerate) people who go against the…

I'd love to see what those exact same students would say if the prevailing attitude changed and a massive wave of right-wing ideology took over campus politics. I'm sure that they'd be crying about how their self-evident right to self-expression was being horribly violated. Poor things.

This kind of attack is completely unnecessary. How is anyone supposed to respond to this comment when you've already constructed a straw man for your opponent and trivialized it?

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#33
post #31

I've made this point before, but I feel compelled to repeat it in response to this post. The late Christopher Hitchens, in one of his greatest orations[1], made some excellent points about free speech: ...it’s not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard. It is the right of everyone in the audience to listen, and to hear. And every time you silence someone you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, b…

There is no absolute right to be heard.

A fire-and-brimstone preacher on a street corner is a nuisance to me, and I won't want to hear him. But it's a public place, so I would just move on to avoid being annoyed by listening to him. Were he to knock on my front door I would tell him "no" and close the door again. Were he to be granted a lecture at the local university I would not bother to attend.

Yes, my mind is already closed and made up on the topics that this hypothetical preacher would like to re-open with me. Both of us think that we know better than the other. So what?

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#34

I don't like the tone of his writing, but he's got some excellent points. I think that one of the greatest strengths of the university system is the idea that "offensive" ideas can be debated. An enormous amount of knowledge has been gotten from heresy, and I would argue that universities have been so central in the spread of knowledge precisely because they encourage (or at least tolerate) people who go against the…

I'd love to see what those exact same students would say if the prevailing attitude changed and a massive wave of right-wing ideology took over campus politics. I'm sure that they'd be crying about how their self-evident right to self-expression was being horribly violated. Poor things.

I mean, this is simple enough to check, right?

Look at how historically right-wing or conservative universities (say, Baylor, Brigham Young, or Texas A&M) handle such things with their student groups.

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#35
post #31

I've made this point before, but I feel compelled to repeat it in response to this post. The late Christopher Hitchens, in one of his greatest orations[1], made some excellent points about free speech: ...it’s not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard. It is the right of everyone in the audience to listen, and to hear. And every time you silence someone you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, b…

There is no absolute right to be heard. A fire-and-brimstone preacher on a street corner is a nuisance to me, and I won't want to hear him. But it's a public place, so I would just move on to avoid being annoyed by listening to him. Were he to knock on my front door I would tell him "no" and close the door again. Were he to be granted a lecture at the local university I would not bother to attend. Yes, my mind is alr…

Then it sounds like we agree. Freedom of hearing refers to people being able to decide for themselves what they should hear.

I would behave like you in your examples. To go with your university case, the line is crossed if one tries to get the disliked speaker uninvited from the university. Or if one attends the lecture to disrupt it. This has happened many times with prominent speakers, and it's a shame that some people consider it acceptable behavior.

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#36
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding based on reading the Geek Feminism Wiki [1] is that the author misrepresented trigger warnings as a signal that something might be offensive when rather they are actually meant to give people a warning that content may re-open deep psychological wounds (such as a PTSD flashback from abuse, urges to self-harm, etc). [1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning

"Trigger warning" and "safe space" are two terms that have sensible, specific definitions, but in practice are very frequently used in an informal, overly expansive way that renders them ridiculous.

Right, so it's a matter of degree. A "trigger warning" policy may be sensible in some form, but can be taken too far.

Oberlin College's infamous policy [1] (now tabled) shows this dynamic at its worst, warning faculty that "anything could be a trigger" and encouraging them to "remove triggering material when it does not contribute directly to the course learning goals." Such a policy pressures faculty into avoiding controversial subjects altogether, and gives students a lever to remove content they would rather not see taught.

Happily this policy has since been revised, showing that faculty can successfully fight to maintain their academic autonomy.

1: http://web.archive.org/web/20131222174936/http:/new.oberlin....

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#37
My problem with "the right to be comfortable" is that it gives creates lopsided debates. One side can be argued everywhere, whereas the other, the offensive one, can only be argued very carefully in the right places.

The solution, as I see it, is to disallow the inoffensive side too. For instance if there were a forum, that didn't allow attacks on whole classes of people, then it is best if they don't allow defenses either.

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#38
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the good arguments FOR "trigger warnings?"

We impose limitations on Free Speech for libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, hate speech, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, non-disclosure agreements, right to privacy, right to be forgotten, public security, public order, public nuisance, and campaign finance reform. (This incomplete list scraped from Wikipedia). The means by which we decide these e…

Move to North Korea you fascist fucking nigger lover. Does your Dad fill out a permission slip for you when you go outside to smoke a cigarette?

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#39
post #23
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we won't have a public debate about war anymore because it might cause a PTSD-induced breakdown in veterans?

We'd still have the debate, but if we know in advance that we're going to show or describe the horrors of war in graphic detail, we'd warn the veterans in the audience beforehand. Trigger warnings aren't censorship, they're common courtesy.

How long before the trigger warning itself triggers the very behavior they're trying to warn about?

Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’

#40
post #32

I don't like the tone of his writing, but he's got some excellent points. I think that one of the greatest strengths of the university system is the idea that "offensive" ideas can be debated. An enormous amount of knowledge has been gotten from heresy, and I would argue that universities have been so central in the spread of knowledge precisely because they encourage (or at least tolerate) people who go against the…

I'd love to see what those exact same students would say if the prevailing attitude changed and a massive wave of right-wing ideology took over campus politics. I'm sure that they'd be crying about how their self-evident right to self-expression was being horribly violated. Poor things. This kind of attack is completely unnecessary. How is anyone supposed to respond to this comment when you've already constructed a s…

It's not an attack, it's what's happening to the public discourse right now. There are areas of the internet that are right wing. Left wing people go to those areas to debate ideas, but when they see the comments sections aren't on their side, they claim harassment. This harassment may or may not come with requests for the moderators to make the comments a "safe space".
Post reply on HN