Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 655 posts

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#531

Post by frostmatthew »

ColinCera wrote: post #505
frostmatthew wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you referring to the brief period in which a handful of tech companies colluded to tamp down salaries and cross-recruiting? Ignoring for the moment I don't think four years is very "brief" or eight is only a "handful"[1] (and it may actually be even more[2]) It's a bit naive to think this "had no significant impact on the national average salaries" - some of these companies are/were among the largest and most d…

What is naive is to assume without evidence that the actions of a handful of companies that employ a tiny percentage of software developers had a significant impact on average salaries nationwide. In the absence of any such evidence, it makes more sense to assume it had little impact, which is what I do. The example you cite is mere speculation, and one could easily speculate about an opposite effect, i.e., companies…

The example is hypothetical, but it is not speculation. A candidate [usually] decides to accept an offer or not on a number of factors. As a hiring manager you are unable to change most of these factors (e.g. you cannot change the tech stack, or the company culture, or the location). What you can change (to make your offer more appealing than others a candidate is considering) is the pay.

If you're considering another offer for X, I can make my offer more attractive by exceeding X. The lower X is the less it cost me to exceed it. If some companies (particularly large and desirable ones) are lowering X that will affect far more than "just" the 64,000 members of the class action.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#532

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Amezarak wrote: post #529
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But unlike a resteraunt, you can open abroad and capture labor resources in other countries. So if programmers get too expensive in the states, or Silicon Valley, relative to the world market, there is a point where you are forced to open an office elsewhere (if not your competition does and eats your lunch). Without immigration, that would happen sooner (rather than the mythical doubling of American programming sala…

Programmers in the US are already wildly, wildly expensive in the USA relative to the world market, often by an order of magnitude. So, if that's the case, we're already screwed and we're only being saved by some market inefficiency. We should all prepare for the inevitable future where we are doing very well to make 15-20k. EDIT: http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary The maximum on that scale…

You cannot hire a good Chinese programmer for 15-20k, so no worries.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#533

Post by wallflower »

superalanliu wrote: post #395
wallflower wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you want to become an exceptional one? I'm going to give you an alternative answer. There is a hard limit on our personal abilities. There comes a point where a lead developer matures by bringing on people onto their team who are better at X. I really like this comment from an AskHN from jlcfly several weeks ago. I hope most of us embrace this philosophy as the reality is programming as an art is much more imp…

"There is a hard limit on our personal abilities." Reading this makes me think of fixed vs growth mindset. Also, I feel that the 'hard limit' is way beyond the 'exceptional' line. So anyone can work and become exceptional. I feel like the 'hard limit' applies if you want to be #1 or something not the .01%.

You are correct.

Technical ability is somewhere in the continuum between fixed and growth. When I look at natural artists draw portraits, I realize that it will take me years and days of continual practice to get to their point (even if I ever do). The true measure of a good portrait artist is how few lines they take to capture the essence of an individual.

As someone once explained to me, it is hard to be the global maximum (e.g. the most attractive person in the world or the best coder in the world). It is much more achievable to be the local maximum (e.g. the best listener/most interesting person at the party, the one who regularly gives interesting technical talks at the local niche meet up). And really - therein buried is my point - if you truly want to be an exceptional programmer, I believe you must help others become better. Otherwise, what are you contributing? Your high income paycheck to buy stuff? True happiness comes from belonging (strongly) to a community.

The way I look at fixed vs growth is in terms of diversification. Yes, if I invest 1000 hours in beginning to go through TAOCP - I might become a better algorithmic thinker. However, what would becoming a better algorithmic thinker do to my medium and long-term goals? I personally and strongly believe that the more we invest in areas that we have interest in and may fear a bit (fear is a very good indicator of what you need to work on) and yet may be relatively weak in e.g. learning how to sell, connect to people - the more diversified your life, relationships, acquaintances, and skills will become.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#534

Post by LetBinding »

sgnelson wrote: post #528

My question is why should we only apply this to programmers? What about Mechanical engineers? What about Machinists (there is quite the demand and a very low supply of them if you talk to many manufacturers), what about Doctors, Nurses? Farmers? (there's not much demand that I've heard about the need for farmers, but I think they're important, so I'd like to bring them in to the Country.) Do we only let people in bec…

Uh.. H-1B visas are used to for mechanical engineers, nurses, doctors, and MBA grads all the time. The reason you don't know them is because this is a tech-focussed forum and the absolute number of these visas going to the other professions is fewer.

But graduates of top civil engineering, nursing, biology, medical, neuroscience, physics, etc programs in the country primarily use the H-1B visa for post study employment.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#535

Post by Amezarak »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #532
Amezarak wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers in the US are already wildly, wildly expensive in the USA relative to the world market, often by an order of magnitude. So, if that's the case, we're already screwed and we're only being saved by some market inefficiency. We should all prepare for the inevitable future where we are doing very well to make 15-20k. EDIT: http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary The maximum on that scale…

You cannot hire a good Chinese programmer for 15-20k, so no worries.

Perhaps not, I did not check Chinese salaries, but you can hire good programmers from other countries for less than that.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#536

Post by gstar »

I wonder if it's as simple as population ratios for programming talent.

Kenyan (distance) and Jamaican (sprinters) runners offer a counterpoint here, the world's best are all from tiny regions, in fact, some are from the same family, and most all train together.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/11/01/241895965/how-...

http://elitetrack.com/blogs-details-4075/

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#537

Post by voidlogic »

santacluster wrote: post #425
voidlogic wrote: post #297

IMHO the real issue isn't that they many companies can't find great programmers, its that they only want great programmers who live in their locality. For many (most?) startups in the valley, if you aren't living in the greater SFO area, or willing to relocate there, they are not interested. They are dinosaurs living in the past, fighting distributed collaboration. (Which is ironic as they are technology companies).…

How is it that every time someone makes this argument, they do it in such a superficial, arrogant and ignorant way that makes me not want to work with them, remotely or otherwise? The bandwidth of personal IRL interaction adds enormous value. Yes, in many scenario's that value is not strictly necessary, or can be compensated. But if you think it's bullshit, or something for "dinosaurs", you have a serious problem. No…

>The bandwidth of personal IRL interaction adds enormous value.... But if you think it's bullshit, or something for "dinosaurs", you have a serious problem. Not just as a programmer, but as a human being.

To be fair I never said real-life face time lacked value. I think periodic group meet-ups are helpful and need to happen. I think you were reading words I never wrote. I think ideally a distributed teams do need to have retreats together. (This is a "like milkshakes, but do I need one everyday for lunch" kind of thing IMHO)

>How is it that every time someone makes this argument, they do it in such a superficial, arrogant and ignorant way

I was addressing the authors point that: the way to to address this "scarcity" is by importing people from over seas into a few major metro areas. My point is if there are many domestic (or foreign) resources outside of said metro areas there isn't really more then a self-imposed scarcity.

>you have a serious problem. Not just as a programmer, but as a human being.

I was sharing an opinion-- I am totally OK with you disagreeing with it, that is fine, but that above response was beyond rude, it was personal and cruel.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#538

Post by moultano »

dang wrote: post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

> how are we to objectively evaluate who the great programmers are, when it has often been argued (including by a certain essayist) that this can't be measured?

This isn't that hard. Let companies bid for H1-B slots. The more they are willing to pay, the better the programmer.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#539

Post by prostoalex »

curun1r wrote: post #496
prostoalex wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a dev manager at a prominent employer of software engineers I find it hard to believe. In large companies HR establishes salary levels (usually bands) which are tied to titles or levels within the career ladder. Does your company negotiate each compensation package on a one-off basis?

We have bands, but they can be pretty wide...the top of the band is easily 125% of the bottom. And managers are only limited by the top of the band when extending an offer. And some of the salaries listed on that site are below band. We also get salaries below band through acquisitions. In those cases, managers aren't really given leeway to get their salaries up to market. We've go a mostly-fixed pool of raises to ap…

If this is overwhelming behavior, Department of Labor can crack down on the company for not paying the "prevailing" wage. If the offers do tend to be around the bottom of the band, but there's also a good supply of non-immigrant employees working at the bottom of the band then yeah, the company will have an easy argument saying the prevailing wage is closer to the bottom of the band.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#540

Post by voidlogic »

tolmasky wrote: post #311
voidlogic wrote: post #297

IMHO the real issue isn't that they many companies can't find great programmers, its that they only want great programmers who live in their locality. For many (most?) startups in the valley, if you aren't living in the greater SFO area, or willing to relocate there, they are not interested. They are dinosaurs living in the past, fighting distributed collaboration. (Which is ironic as they are technology companies).…

Warning, anecdotal data ahead: I would not want to work under remote conditions again. In my career I have worked mainly under "startup conditions". At Apple on iPhone, everyone lived in the same place and worked non stop on the product, same as when I left to start a company. On my second company, I had many remote workers. The reality I experienced is that there was at least a 2-3x slowdown. When people are on diff…

Both working in and managing distributed teams is a skill that needs to be learned and homed. In comparison to my experiences, it seems like the distributed team you worked on was highly dysfunctional. I think I distributed startup spanning more the a handful of adjacent timezones is probably a mistake. Task assignment need to be done in a way that is cognizant of the people/timezone interdependencies. Even a non-startup might find it useful to break the various teams up by clusters of close timezones so that the regular work-flows don't experience this kind of lag.
Post reply on HN