Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In • Hacker News Board

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#461

Post by kar2014 » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:26 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #340

pastProlog wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Over 100,000 H1-B's are coming over every year. This keeps discussing exceptional programmers. You mean we need more than 100,000 exceptional programmers coming over every year? The reality is that the idea that even 10,000 of these people are exceptional programmers is a laugh. Every year 100,000 H1-Bs can come in. To believe this article, we'd have to pretend that we have a big wall up preventing these dozens…

So the problem isn't the immigration restriction, it's the lack of screening. Using PG's logic, all of those 100,000 should be 'exceptional' or else we're wasting tens of thousands of visa slots that should be going to the 'exceptional.' And how is 'exceptional' determined? We should let everyone in with the hope that some percentage happens to be exceptional? What about the non exceptional? What would that do to the…

Here are the insidious effects of outsourcing and remote workers. Slowly and surely they will take over. Take a look at this and you will understand the dangers of offshoring and remote work. How Dell lost to Asus.

http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-current-relationship-betwee...

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#462

Post by patronagezero » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:31 AM UTC

Surrender your welfare programs (social security, public schools, the postal office, health insurance, the war machine, NASA, etc) and I'll be on board with completely open immigration. Barring that, you're just another corporate shill looking to profit from the ignorance of the masses.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#463

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:34 AM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #458

HillRat wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is a doctor shortage, particularly in the general practitioner space, where salaries are much lower than specialist medicine; likewise, while there's not a shortage of lawyers, oversupply has pushed down wages (and pushed would-be attorneys out of the market), and law school enrollments have fallen appropriately. Comp-sci salaries are really, really good , to the point that a single experienced developer…

My point was less that we bring in the big guns by poaching them from these other fields, then that we address the issue the way it's traditionally been addressed, which is to let the market take care of it. If these development jobs are really magnificent engines of wealth creation, then pay more to hire for the positions and more qualified people will appear. If, as you point out, there's now a lawyer glut, and now…

And all those services you keep comparing against, you know, can't be moved outside the USA (I'm not going to china to get a back rub or my transmission rebuilt). And of course, software doesn't work like that at all (I can open a software development office in China with the money I make there; as a bonus, I avoid repatriating the money back into the states for extra taxes).

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#464

Post by chrismcb » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:35 AM UTC

nhjk wrote: post #427

dang wrote: post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

The article itself is of low quality. Entire sections are based on flimsy assumptions or are just plain false. I'll list a few here: "The US has less than 5% of the world's population. Which means if the qualities that make someone a great programmer are evenly distributed, 95% of great programmers are born outside the US." A huge portion of the world can't even feed itself let alone educate itself to the high standa…

The assusption isn't false (at least not the one you point out) the main assumption to the article is "great programmers are born" this comes from the statement that you can you can reach component programmes but not exceptional ones. The thesis is not about "programmers" it is about "exceptional programmers. It is a fact that less than 5% of the population lives in the US. You have to assume the qualities that make a great programmer are fairly evenly distributed (even if that person never utilises his skill) this is not a thin out false assumption. If you want to attack an assumption, attack the one that says you can't teach great programmers

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#465

Post by jonny_eh » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:39 AM UTC

nhjk wrote: post #427

dang wrote: post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

The article itself is of low quality. Entire sections are based on flimsy assumptions or are just plain false. I'll list a few here: "The US has less than 5% of the world's population. Which means if the qualities that make someone a great programmer are evenly distributed, 95% of great programmers are born outside the US." A huge portion of the world can't even feed itself let alone educate itself to the high standa…

> If you can't hire someone at your expected price then maybe you should raise it. Maybe the market price has gone higher than what you perceive it to be. That CEO could find his 30 "10x" engineers in a heartbeat if he offered 300-500k. Its not your god given right to be able to hire x number of employees for the price you hired your previous employees at.

It's a zero-sum game. If company X hires all 30 of the best engineers currently looking for a job, company Y cannot. Company Y can offer more in an attempt to lure them, but then Company X will be SOL.

We're talking about macro issues here. We want as many companies as possible to succeed.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#466

Post by jonny_eh » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:42 AM UTC

njloof wrote: post #416

don_draper wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the idea of pg lobbying to flood the market with cheap programming labor is not only demonstrably wrong" He wants the top programmers in the world to be able to come to the USA. But my suspicion is he has very little concern for your above average, but not great, USA born programmer whose wages are threatened by corporations that exploit and abuse the H1B Visa program.

Hiring H-1Bs can drive all salaries down, including US programmers working at the same desk. I'd also like to see data regarding programmer age -- do we seek young US and H-1B alike to get cheaper, younger talent?

As an H1-B I can say that I'm paid the local market salary for my skillset. And so is my wife.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#467

Post by patronagezero » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:42 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

What depths of poor taste we find ourselves in, to be disagreeing with pg on hn.

Even pg can occasionally come off as an ignoramus, but don't let that convince you of the fallibility of your glorious leader.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#468

Post by kar2014 » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:50 AM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #165

I have a ton of issues with this post. For starters, the idea that some people are just inherently exceptional programmers and others can only be competent is elitist. Is it any wonder that every programmer in Silicon Valley thinks they're God's gift to the programming world? We've been taught that to be hirable we have to be "10x" engineers who spend all of our free time hacking. But ok, maybe you don't agree with m…

I'm all for remote work and offshoring but those things have insidious effects. See how Dell lost to Asus.

http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-current-relationship-betwee...

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#469

Post by blackbagboys » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 12:54 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #448

nhjk wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article itself is of low quality. Entire sections are based on flimsy assumptions or are just plain false. I'll list a few here: "The US has less than 5% of the world's population. Which means if the qualities that make someone a great programmer are evenly distributed, 95% of great programmers are born outside the US." A huge portion of the world can't even feed itself let alone educate itself to the high standa…

There are many opportunities to apply the Principle of Charity here. For example, that statement about populations can easily be interpreted to mean simply that great programmers can be born anywhere. That's pretty unobjectionable. (Imagine the kerfuffle if he had claimed anything but that.) And does the literal number "95%" substantively change the argument that there are many great programmers outside the U.S. and…

The interpretations you've suggested go far beyond interpreting PG's argument in the strongest possible terms, running instead to interpreting it as a completely different argument. (Although I suppose that's not very charitable of me).

Obviously anything is unobjectionable if you agree beforehand to disregard any interpretation you could possibly find objectionable.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#470

Post by kar2014 » Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 1:02 AM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #309

andrewmutz wrote: post #276

I have a quick question for those arguing against PG's position: Do you genuinely believe that increasing the number of talented software engineers emigrating to the United States is bad for the United States? Or bad for you ? In the same way that I would argue for public policy that benefits us all (not just me), I think we should have immigration policies that benefit everyone, not just Software Engineers.

Drive down the wages of your most talented citizens and yes, you hurt the entire country.

Actually, here's how I'd put it. If you are not competitive (in your terms, drive down the salary) OR produce something great at prices others can. Then jobs and companies will go overseas. Not only will there be jobs will lower salaries but there will be fewer jobs, period. Now that will be problem for entire country.

Having more programmers will not be a problem for the country, they will only be a problem to those who want to maintain their salaries turning their eyes away from reality of globalization.