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Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

161–170 of 655 posts

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#161
post #40

Meanwhile, why don't get better at management to allow remote work? ...

It's been tried in the past, but it hasn't been that successful. Technology has come a long way in decreasing communication boundaries, but it won't replace (at least for the next 5-10 years) the latent need to have employees in office. It's not only about the work produced, but also the interactions between the team. Both Yahoo[1] and Reddit[2] have banned remote working.

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/why-marissa-mayer-told-remote...

[2] http://venturebeat.com/2014/10/04/why-reddits-new-no-remote-...

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#162

I really want to believe this, but I'm not sure that I do. Of course the tech companies want to hire people from overseas; being able to hire someone from India for half the cost but have them live in the US so there's some level of accountability/trust is a no-brainer. Huge new, cheap talent pool. But, if I'm an entry-level, US-based programmer, what I see are floods of cheap talent, some with questionable skills, c…

I wonder where do you get your data for "hire someone from India for half the cost". Of all the facts thrown around - this is easily verifiable - http://www.h1bwage.com/index.php If you ignore those employed on hourly basis, a majority of people on H1B are paid quite well. Apart from salary and benefits - add Visa processing fees for their Kids and Spouse as well (which can easily amount to > 30k+) I think people und…

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Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#163
post #50

Two immediately obvious problems in this set of arguments: 1) There'd be more great programmers if they wouldn't all divide themselves amongst so many startups, the vast majority of which will fail. Some other VC's have pointed out this problem as well. Less start-ups overall would increase the amount of great programmers available, and maybe more of them would succeed. 2) PG himself has said that great programmers g…

There are many problems with PG's arguments.

1. It's painfully obvious that he doesn't talk anybody in the trench.

2. If H1B Visas used the way it was intended, there would be no issue with finding those great talents. Instead, H1B Visas are used my large consultancies and corporations for tapping cheap labors.

3. There are strong programming talents in Western and Eastern Europe, but they are not knocking down embassies to come to the U.S. despite much better job prospects and higher pay. Because quality of life is inferior.

4. You don't need a company full of 'great programmers'.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#164
post #86

Here are the H1B Top Ten visa sponsors: 1 Infosys 32,379 $76,494 2 Tata Consultancy Services 8,785 $66,113 3 Wipro 6,733 $69,953 4 Deloitte Consulting 6,165 $98,980 5 Ibm 5,839 $87,789 6 Accenture 5,099 $70,878 7 Larsen & Toubro Infotech 4,380 $59,933 8 Microsoft 3,911 $113,408 9 Hcl America 3,012 $81,376 10 Satyam Computer Services 2,249 $73,374 How many of those are America's top tech companies who are in dire need…

By all means, write to your elected representatives to cut down on importation of cut-rate programmers. But know that this doesn't disprove Paul Graham's point. He is against the importation of cut-rate programmers too (see his footnote [2]). He is only for the importation of top-notch programmers.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#165
I have a ton of issues with this post.

For starters, the idea that some people are just inherently exceptional programmers and others can only be competent is elitist. Is it any wonder that every programmer in Silicon Valley thinks they're God's gift to the programming world? We've been taught that to be hirable we have to be "10x" engineers who spend all of our free time hacking.

But ok, maybe you don't agree with me on this point. You feel as though there truly is some kind of "master race" of programmers who are inherently gifted in ways that nobody else can learn to be gifted. That still doesn't mean that you should agree with PG.

Why do we need to import all of these engineers into Silicon Valley? One of the great benefits of Software Engineering is that it can be done from anywhere in the world. Why can't people choose to stay where they live? My suspicion is that it has more to do with entrepreneurial arrogance than anything else. Company executives simply want to build big empires with lots of programmers all under their thumb under one roof.

So what happens? If you want to be an engineer, you have to come to Silicon Valley and displace someone who already lives in the Bay Area. It's displacement that breeds displacement.

Ok, maybe you still don't believe me. You think that we need exceptional engineers and they have to be in the Bay Area. The immigration policies that tech companies are pushing for aren't based on merit. The STEM visas only apply to people who are schooled in the US. In other words, the people who will be coming to the US on these new visas aren't coming here because they are one of the exceptional engineers tech companies fawn after. They're here because they have parents who can afford to send them of to the US to fancy schools. We're not getting the "poor and huddled masses" that made this nation great anymore.

Is it any wonder people in the Bay Area hate us? We're elitist, we displace people, and we're importing people from affluent backgrounds.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#166
This may be the least inspiring, least visionary solutions for one of the tech industry's challenges I've ever read from PG. That's unfortunate.

The tech industry's hostility to the basic concepts of training and employee development, which have long since been implemented in every other long-lasting trade and industry, need to change. That change needs to start with the industry's most prominent leaders and foremost thinkers.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#167
What I take away from the HN/Startup/Recruiting drama:

* Companies don't know how find good people (they think they know how to attract them, but honestly, how can they tell? They don't notice the ones they fail to attract, which I'd argue is most people)

* Companies are unable to produce (e.g. educate) good people

* They want to solve their failures by increasing the search space of people

I have no sympathy at all here. If you want good people you have to pick them up early and educate them. A startup however wants great people now, and they are supposed to be a great match by pure chance. This is classic irrational dream-thinking. You have to be pretty proud of yourself to expect all the good things will come to you just like that.

I suggest an alternative (my) approach, I call it the "secret elite ninja clan" approach:

1. Find out what skills are required in your industry.

2. Become a good at teaching these skills.

3. Find a pupil (as motivated as possible, no skills required)

4. Educate that pupil until a) they are as good as you are or better / b) they loose interest and leave you

5. Make money by utilizing the resulting skills. Also test your pupil's new talents.

6. Make pupil a partner if possible, return to step 1.

Also important: If you meet someone, figure out how that person can generate value, don't get cornered by your expectations. Improvise, diversify.

I am currently with my third pupil (first two were not motivated enough) and she seems to have it in her blood. I think if we keep up we can "grow" a pretty good company of really good people in a decade or so. Of course, there won't be a CEO, or a product, just really good hourly rates.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong is that cheapness is enforced by making those laborers a second class citizen- they need to stay with the company that sponsors their visa or they get kicked out of the country. Thats also the only reason why they're cheaper. Because, by law, their employers have stripped them of the only negotiating right an employee usually has- the ability to switch jobs. This would be unethical enough if it existed…

I know all of that. I was one of them. But you got things half-right. If it were easier to companies to sponsor H1B visas, it would also mean that it would be easier for me to switch companies if I wanted. I got a H1B outside of the quota (education/not for profit). The industry I was working was probably paying 10-15% than I could get if I got a job at a tech company, but not any lower than a startup. Every startup…

The most honest and fair thing would be to grant the visa for a time period, and let the visa holder negotiate with companies like any other citizen.

But thats not what this recent 'reform immigration' movement is about. When you get down to it, the tech immigration movement, FWD.US, is basically asking for more H1B visas to be allocated, which will give the biggest companies even more of an advantage against both competing small companies (that don't have a legal team dedicated to immigration) and employees (who can't negotiate against captive labor).

Thats why it's basically composed of huge companies, and you don't see much buy in from smaller ones.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#169
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. When the server is on fire at 3am, PagerDuty wakes California employees with the same success rate. Surely you can put in your employment agreement that the reason you are paying American wages to someone in a much cheaper location is because they can be woken up at any time. The finance industry has operated this way for decades.

I don't think waking someone up every night at 3am for a question/idea is 'seamless' or productive at all. Delayed email for when they wake up is what we generally deal with, but it definitely creates friction when working across large time zones.

Every night is certainly excessive, but I don't have brilliant unplanned conversations with my teammates every day either.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#170
post #86

Here are the H1B Top Ten visa sponsors: 1 Infosys 32,379 $76,494 2 Tata Consultancy Services 8,785 $66,113 3 Wipro 6,733 $69,953 4 Deloitte Consulting 6,165 $98,980 5 Ibm 5,839 $87,789 6 Accenture 5,099 $70,878 7 Larsen & Toubro Infotech 4,380 $59,933 8 Microsoft 3,911 $113,408 9 Hcl America 3,012 $81,376 10 Satyam Computer Services 2,249 $73,374 How many of those are America's top tech companies who are in dire need…

You're refuting an argument the essay not only doesn't make, but explicitly disowns.
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