10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse • Hacker News Board

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#91

Post by jcl » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 1:58 PM UTC

andreyf wrote: post #47

joe_the_user wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but his problem actually points to this being a problem for anyone. It becomes a problem when the machine requires all of my dexterity just to accomplish a given task. I dislike all Apple products specifically because they require mouse operations to accomplish things where Linux and MS interfaces tend to have keyboard shortcuts.

In my experience, OSX has much better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than Windows does. A simple example: you'd like to force-kill the focused application. In OSX, you type command-option-esc (one hand), return, return (other hand). I don't know what it is in Vita, but in XP, it would require quite a bit of mousework.

In XP, control-shift-escape (almost the same key combo as OSX) brings up the task manager, where you can kill whatever you want using the keyboard. By default, it comes up with the current application selected, so you can press tab then space to kill it.

As this can all be done with one hand, does XP therefore have better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than OSX? ;)

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#92

Post by zandorg » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 2:13 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #87

jrockway wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not too excited by their keyboards, unfortunately. They do sell separate USB foot pedals, but they act as the mouse buttons until you reprogram them on a Windows computer. I don't know anyone that uses Windows.

Get hold of a Win2K disk image and put it in VirtualBox. (No details given, but you should be able to get one, plus install key for, ahem , cheap.) You can connect the virtual image to the USB device. You might need one of the service packs to get USB to work, however.

I don't know what that is, but you could use a MIDI pedal and hook it up with some controller software!

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#93

Post by sid0 » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 2:31 PM UTC

andrewtj wrote: post #70

joe_the_user wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The folks who say the Macintosh has better short-cuts don't get the fact that in Windows you can do anything with the keyboard, on the Macintosh, there are many things which you cannot do with the keyboard.

Respectfully, it seems like every time I see this comment it's from a Windows power user who's not that familiar with OS X - can you please provide an example?

Lock the computer.

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#94

Post by deyan » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 2:54 PM UTC

andreyf wrote: post #47

joe_the_user wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but his problem actually points to this being a problem for anyone. It becomes a problem when the machine requires all of my dexterity just to accomplish a given task. I dislike all Apple products specifically because they require mouse operations to accomplish things where Linux and MS interfaces tend to have keyboard shortcuts.

In my experience, OSX has much better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than Windows does. A simple example: you'd like to force-kill the focused application. In OSX, you type command-option-esc (one hand), return, return (other hand). I don't know what it is in Vita, but in XP, it would require quite a bit of mousework.

Did you (all of you not just andreyf) seriously manage to degrade the discussion on the GUI into a OSX vs. Windows debate? Or perhaps my expectations are just way too high..

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#95

Post by deyan » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 2:58 PM UTC

jpwagner wrote: post #8

Phenomenal video. The ideas are definitely interesting, but I am amazed at the clarity of the presentation.

Thanks for posting, it looks quite interesting. The interface is something that I can imagine myself getting adjusted to (for example, I am a big Opera user and use gestures all the time - once you get used to them they are phenomenal).

I had a similar idea a while ago and might try to implement it this summer as a side project using Johnny Wii's tricks perhaps + Windows 7 (not sure how much of the interface I can pull off). I would be curious to see in particular how tired I am (i.e. my hands) after using such an interface for a while.

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#96

Post by mitko » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 3:20 PM UTC

Scrolling alone already had decreased a lot of tension in my arms. 10/GUI would probably have great effect on RSI reduction.

It is amazing how intuitive touch can be. I just love the multi-touch on the touchpad that Ubuntu for example supports. I never knew my old Thinkpad T43 would be able to do it but it does.

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#97

Post by username » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 3:20 PM UTC

mmelin wrote: post #86

andrewtj wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head: alt-tab == ⌘-tab Restore == Ctl-F3, arrow key to window in Dock, return Arbitrary menu item, depends: Application Menu (left-handside text menus) == Ctl-F2, type enough unique letters to identify the menu (or use arrow keys), return, type enough unique letters to identify the item... repeat till you get to the item you want. If this annoys you, you can implement your own keyboard shortcuts in…

And if you really want to do fine-grained resizing, just install MercuryMover.

MercuryMover is another $20 add-on.

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#98

Post by username » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 3:49 PM UTC

I'd rather have more modifier keys and mouse buttons or modifier mouse buttons. Instead of pinching with fingers, you could move the mouse while holding another mouse button. For three or more finger gestures, you could hold down another mouse button.

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#99

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 5:01 PM UTC

andrewtj wrote: post #74

joe_the_user wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Application switching - what's the equivalent of alt-tab? Including resizing Restoring a minimizing application. -- Selecting an arbitrary menu item Arrowing through a menu is key for me. I'm writing from memory but last I recall working on a mac, the menus were strictly mouse only. -- What's the equivalent of the start button, giving a list of available I can select with the keyboard? I remember not being able to na…

Off the top of my head: alt-tab == ⌘-tab Restore == Ctl-F3, arrow key to window in Dock, return Arbitrary menu item, depends: Application Menu (left-handside text menus) == Ctl-F2, type enough unique letters to identify the menu (or use arrow keys), return, type enough unique letters to identify the item... repeat till you get to the item you want. If this annoys you, you can implement your own keyboard shortcuts in…

A few keys to get to a few menu items really doesn't work since you have to remember them. In windows, you can use the alt key to both arrow through the menu AND to learn the specific hot-keys.

Plus I actually suspect that a many application don't implement the keys you've mentioned since I was definitely at-sea in my efforts to use any keys.

But thanks, I'll have more ammunition the next time I'm stuck Osx-land.

Re: 10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

#100

Post by TrevorJ » Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 5:19 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #60

TrevorJ wrote: post #32

Having a non-focused, non-active window arbitrarily take up 1/3 of my viewable monitor at all times would drive me nuts. It also makes no sense to me to go to the trouble of allowing a user to use all ten fingers, and then restricting application interaction to only two or three fingers. I work in rich, deep applications with tons of controls and buttons, if I'm going to go to the trouble of learning to use ten finge…

I think you're onto something. OS interaction/application switching should be simple, and the individual app interaction should be more complex. I think 4 app selection modes are almost too much. 3 is perfect. Prediction: I suspect that Apple is taking Exposé in exactly this direction.

The real logical gap in the thinking here is that they are focusing on replacing the mouse but in reality, they are in fact replacing functions that can be executed simply and quickly with a keyboard. Application switching etc can be done efficiently with a keyboard. At the very least I question the wisdom of moving away from the modifier key paradigm because it is an elegant and easy method of interaction.

I also believe that as we engage more and more of the body in a control interface, for it to be natural it is going to need to mimic real-world interaction so that we can rely on our lifetime of experience interacting with physical objects.

The better solution in my opinion would contain:

-2 mirrored screens so that the one under your hands can be glanced at for reference as well.

-A UI approach that allows you to interact with objects and windows in the same ways you would with real objects. (Grabbing the edges moves the window, pushing down on it 'sticks' it in place, etc.)