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Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#61

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

benesch wrote: post #19
loganadams_ wrote: post #10

I have a tough time with this article. I understand what it is trying to say. The costs are ridiculous. But what I see among my friends is that those who went to large public flagship schools got lost, and had a much tougher time. However, those who went to smaller private schools on scholarships built better connections with professors, and tended to do better long run.

Interesting. That's directly opposite what I've seen. My close high school friends nearly all went to Ivy League-quality schools: Yale, Penn, MIT, Caltech, etc. Some of us are happy. Most of us are succeeding. A few of us are excelling. (Personally, I'm struggling. I have this irrepressible notion that liberal arts are a waste of my time, no matter how hard I try to subscribe to the learning-for-learning's-sake theor…

"I have this irrepressible notion that liberal arts are a waste of my time"

I used to teach math at a large public university, and would always have kids asking 'what's the point of this' and thinking it was a waste of their time.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#62

Post by mason240 »

nwenzel wrote: post #59

"The biggest predictor of whether a graduate wasn't thriving was whether he or she had student loans. Fourteen percent of those without any debt said they were thriving, compared to 2 percent of those with more than $40,000 of debt. You can't draw iron-clad conclusions from that..." Maybe "you" can't draw any iron-clad conclusions from that observation, but I can. Debt is a multiplier. It's great when there's appreci…

Student loan debt can be a multiplier if it increases your income. I started my CS degree at 27, working at a pizza restaurant manager. 4 years later (and 2 years into my new career) I am making twice what was then. My loans will be paid off in 10 years and will still have my career and will continue to out earn what I would have in my old life.

While this clearly isn't the case for all degree earners, it certainly has upside in a lot of cases.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#63

Post by bowlich »

I only skimmed the article after the first couple of paragraphs. The whole $42,000 price tag for a private college is quite a misnomer. My sister went to Michigan Tech, I went to a private liberal arts college. After four years, she has more debt then me.

Your public institution is about as stingy as it can come with it's funding. That $18,000 price tag is going to end up being your final price. If you are a good student, that private college will throw scholarships at you hand over fist. My college's price (starting at $26,000/yr) would typically get slashed by 50% at the start of each year just by the dividends off the school's endowment -- which it does not figure in to it's advertised costs since it various drastically from fiscal year to fiscal year. After that, load on a bunch of random scholarships and I would be down to around $9,000/yr. I had a couple friends whose parents took jobs at the college to get their kids a 90% discount on tuition. They actually ended up making money going to college.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#64

Post by niklasni1 »

methehack wrote: post #50
niklasni1 wrote: post #31

Not a fan of this way of thinking about university, as though it's some power-up in the competition to make the most money. It's all very American. What about learning and being in an environment that inspires you?

I agree but the cost in the US has gone so crazy that even the biggest believers in its inherent value (myself included) end up having questions about comparative worth.

In my country we're paid to go to study, so it's a different proposition I suppose.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#65

Post by existencebox »

bowlich wrote: post #63

I only skimmed the article after the first couple of paragraphs. The whole $42,000 price tag for a private college is quite a misnomer. My sister went to Michigan Tech, I went to a private liberal arts college. After four years, she has more debt then me. Your public institution is about as stingy as it can come with it's funding. That $18,000 price tag is going to end up being your final price. If you are a good stu…

I think that latter statement is very unfair. Myself, any many other "good students" I know still faced ~100-200k in expenses (both tuition and otherwise) at the end of 4 years. Even being offered essentially a 'half off' masters did little to lessen the overall impact; and that was all I got. Granted, I was well enough off financially to recover from this, but other close friends in less advantageous positions came out with 50k+ in debt, and they had "significant amounts" of assistance.

I found my university at least to be just as stingy as the public universities you speak of.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#66

Post by hnnewguy »

modoc wrote: post #51
hacknat wrote: post #25

Everyone talks about the great network-effect from going to a good school. As someone who went to one of these supposedly great "network-effect-ey" schools I say it's bullshit. As a thought experiment, think of your own college experience. Do you really keep in touch with that many people? Of the people you do keep in touch with, can any of them open opportunities for you that are at all relevant to your field? Peopl…

It depends on the person. I can't comment on Ivys, however I attended a very prestigious East coast prep school. At the time I was a terrible "networker" and I left there with zero long term friends and useful connections. A good friend of mine went to a similar prep school, but he's more a naturally social guy, and he's maintained leverage connections with probably 100 people who have gone on to positions of power a…

>So just because I wasn't personally able to capitalize on the networking opportunity doesn't mean that the opportunity wasn't there.

It sounds to me that you reinforce the OPs argument: social people will make connections regardless.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#67

Post by pm90 »

hnnewguy wrote: post #66
modoc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the person. I can't comment on Ivys, however I attended a very prestigious East coast prep school. At the time I was a terrible "networker" and I left there with zero long term friends and useful connections. A good friend of mine went to a similar prep school, but he's more a naturally social guy, and he's maintained leverage connections with probably 100 people who have gone on to positions of power a…

> So just because I wasn't personally able to capitalize on the networking opportunity doesn't mean that the opportunity wasn't there. It sounds to me that you reinforce the OPs argument: social people will make connections regardless.

I don't see how you got there. Being social is important yes, but you can't just meet the diverse number of people that its possible to in university: future lawyers, engineers, doctors, artists, bureaucrats etc. all in the same campus. College is the best time to make connections, and an Ivy League College is even better.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#68

Post by hnnewguy »

michaelochurch wrote: post #2

I tend to wish this were true, because it would be better for the world even if neutral-to-negative for me. In truth, though: pedigree shouldn't matter, but it does. Among the top 100 offerings or so, the differences in quality of education are very small. The differences in quality of students are pretty small. But connections matter, and even if Harvard student's aren't all shockingly brilliant, the dumb ones are c…

>Ten years out, those numbers look more like $250k and $150k.

If there are managers willing to pay an employee 40% more based on an education received a decade prior, there's a huge economic advantage to be had hiring those of "lower pedigree".

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#69

Post by hnnewguy »

pm90 wrote: post #67
hnnewguy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So just because I wasn't personally able to capitalize on the networking opportunity doesn't mean that the opportunity wasn't there. It sounds to me that you reinforce the OPs argument: social people will make connections regardless.

I don't see how you got there. Being social is important yes, but you can't just meet the diverse number of people that its possible to in university: future lawyers, engineers, doctors, artists, bureaucrats etc. all in the same campus. College is the best time to make connections, and an Ivy League College is even better.

>I don't see how you got there.

Well, I started with the fact that he said he isn't social and made few connections, while his sociable friend made many connections. From there, it wasn't hard to conclude that "college" had little to do with generating connections.

>but you can't just meet the diverse number of people that its possible to in university

Completely untrue.

First of all, you know where you can find diversity? Almost anywhere. Join a club or a team sport and you're likely to encounter people of all shapes, colours, ages and occupations.

Second, the University isn't as diverse as you proclaim. The average person you will meet in college in America or the Commonwealth will be globally wealthy, speak English and probably be a WASP, somewhere between ages 18 and 24. You surround yourself with like-minded people in your courses, many of whom will not graduate, and even fewer who will go on to careers related to their education.

Don't get me wrong; I love the college experience, and am a firm believer in education. I've already spent more time there than is optimal for my career.

>College is the best time to make connections

And what do you base this argument on? I didn't have a clue who I was at 20.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#70

Post by michaelochurch »

hnnewguy wrote: post #68
michaelochurch wrote: post #2

I tend to wish this were true, because it would be better for the world even if neutral-to-negative for me. In truth, though: pedigree shouldn't matter, but it does. Among the top 100 offerings or so, the differences in quality of education are very small. The differences in quality of students are pretty small. But connections matter, and even if Harvard student's aren't all shockingly brilliant, the dumb ones are c…

> Ten years out, those numbers look more like $250k and $150k. If there are managers willing to pay an employee 40% more based on an education received a decade prior, there's a huge economic advantage to be had hiring those of "lower pedigree".

No one consciously cares, at that age, where people went to school. What happens is that the ones with pedigree are more likely to be selected for leadership positions early on, and appear "on merit" to be worth more, after several years of higher-quality work experience. In reality, they were just able to get themselves promoted faster. After ten years, though, they legitimately have a higher quality of work experience than those without the pedigree advantage.

So you wouldn't be necessarily able to save $100k by hiring people without the pedigree, because even though many are just as talented, they're not going to have the highest quality of work experience. There are plenty of people who'd do just fine, even with the lack of good experience, but you have to be able to find them.

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