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Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

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Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#51
post #25

Everyone talks about the great network-effect from going to a good school. As someone who went to one of these supposedly great "network-effect-ey" schools I say it's bullshit. As a thought experiment, think of your own college experience. Do you really keep in touch with that many people? Of the people you do keep in touch with, can any of them open opportunities for you that are at all relevant to your field? Peopl…

It depends on the person. I can't comment on Ivys, however I attended a very prestigious East coast prep school. At the time I was a terrible "networker" and I left there with zero long term friends and useful connections.

A good friend of mine went to a similar prep school, but he's more a naturally social guy, and he's maintained leverage connections with probably 100 people who have gone on to positions of power and prestige. He has been able to call on those acquaintances very successfully in his career to open doors and get introductions that simply aren't available to most people.

So just because I wasn't personally able to capitalize on the networking opportunity doesn't mean that the opportunity wasn't there.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a "better life"--which is an inherently unquantifiable notion. Spoken like a true liberal arts major. A better life is pretty easily quantified. The part that gets you tied up in knots is deciding what "better" means. You stop a thousand people on the street, I guarantee you that a ridiculously overwhelming majority can give you an easily quantifiable answer to the question, "What is a better life?" The answers won…

Heh, I'm a computer science major to my core. Spoken like a CS major at a liberal arts school, I suppose. I suspect we agree. If you could universally define "better life," you could quantify it. But you can't. We're also bad--really bad--at analyzing ourselves. Right now, I'd love to be spending 60 hrs/week programming and less time writing papers. But I bet I'll feel differently in a decade. > And no. College is no…

Tangential, but I wanted to respond to this part of your statement:

Right now, I'd love to be spending 60 hrs/week programming and less time writing papers. But I bet I'll feel differently in a decade.

I found that writing in college, for classes, was not fun. It was boring, there was a lot of "write about this thing" that I really didn't know all that well. Further the topics weren't something that interested me deeply. Even worse, on the rare occasions that I did get to choose really interesting topics, the situation was depressing, I just didn't know enough to be able to make a good argument, didn't have enough perspective to understand how to find the structure of the problem and argument, and didn't really nave the background to position my statements. It was an exercise in just noting what other sources said, and putting lots of footnotes - extremely dry crap.

However, 5-6 years after college, I found myself working with a research group at a university (as a staff support programmer), and I did get to spend all my time figuring things out, coding and generally doing cool stuff (basically your 60hrs/week programming). When the time came to make a final report on my first research project, and write up an academic paper about it, was annoyed at having to do another paper. It turned out that academic papers tend to have page counts too, and I'd need to be even more careful about footnoting ideas etc.

Something surprising happened with that though - the page count turned out to be a big problem, but in a completely unexpected way: I had to cut and rewrite several times, just to make solid statement and argument small enough to fit in 8 pages! Amazingly I had gone from "how do I fill 8 pages?" to "crap, I only have 8 pages to say this!".

I think the big difference was the depth of knowledge I had, combined with my genuine interest to describe work I found interesting and satisfying. The college writing course taught me how to footnote, how to present an argument, how to build a reasonable conclusion, but had missed the part about writing being fun when one knows the material well. I went on to also enjoy some other types of writing - grants (convincing someone you have a good idea and getting them to fund it) and position papers (aka white papers, on ideas that our group thought would be good directions for further research.

I'm mentioning this because even if you don't like the writing now, I'd suggest not letting it poison your future views of it - the experience can be rewarding under the right circumstances. Hopefully it will inspire you a bit to get through your current papers a bit easier :)

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#54
Variations between degree programs is bigger than variations between schools. It matters more what you major in vs what school you went to. For example, pretty much any CS degree from any school can get you a job. Whereas, even a degree from a selective school in say, Psychology or Business Admin will be hard for anyone.

Edit: I work in an education tech company and read a decent amount of literature on the subject of school selection and outcomes.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#55
post #54

Variations between degree programs is bigger than variations between schools. It matters more what you major in vs what school you went to. For example, pretty much any CS degree from any school can get you a job. Whereas, even a degree from a selective school in say, Psychology or Business Admin will be hard for anyone. Edit: I work in an education tech company and read a decent amount of literature on the subject o…

[deleted]

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#56
post #25

Everyone talks about the great network-effect from going to a good school. As someone who went to one of these supposedly great "network-effect-ey" schools I say it's bullshit. As a thought experiment, think of your own college experience. Do you really keep in touch with that many people? Of the people you do keep in touch with, can any of them open opportunities for you that are at all relevant to your field? Peopl…

Maybe you didn't do it right.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#57
post #25

Everyone talks about the great network-effect from going to a good school. As someone who went to one of these supposedly great "network-effect-ey" schools I say it's bullshit. As a thought experiment, think of your own college experience. Do you really keep in touch with that many people? Of the people you do keep in touch with, can any of them open opportunities for you that are at all relevant to your field? Peopl…

I guess as a anecdotal counterpoint, I didn't go to the Ivy leagues but I did get my first job because a sales guy recognized my college and had a friend who happened to live next door to me in the dorms and whose computer I had helped fix at some point.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#58
post #19

I have a tough time with this article. I understand what it is trying to say. The costs are ridiculous. But what I see among my friends is that those who went to large public flagship schools got lost, and had a much tougher time. However, those who went to smaller private schools on scholarships built better connections with professors, and tended to do better long run.

Interesting. That's directly opposite what I've seen. My close high school friends nearly all went to Ivy League-quality schools: Yale, Penn, MIT, Caltech, etc. Some of us are happy. Most of us are succeeding. A few of us are excelling. (Personally, I'm struggling. I have this irrepressible notion that liberal arts are a waste of my time, no matter how hard I try to subscribe to the learning-for-learning's-sake theor…

Given the conflicting data points, this question is ripe for some empirical research.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#59
"The biggest predictor of whether a graduate wasn't thriving was whether he or she had student loans. Fourteen percent of those without any debt said they were thriving, compared to 2 percent of those with more than $40,000 of debt. You can't draw iron-clad conclusions from that..."

Maybe "you" can't draw any iron-clad conclusions from that observation, but I can. Debt is a multiplier. It's great when there's appreciation (ex: buying a house) but a heavy burden when there's no upside (credit cards, student loans) and an impossible crushing weight if there is depreciation (ex: buying a house that drops 20% in value).

To all current and future students: good luck out there. Learning for learning's sake is fine. But don't forget to focus on outcomes, too.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#60

1) Network generation is weak, but still there. Does it justify 150k + 150k opportunity cost? The data says no. 2) Colleges are, however, great at identity generation. People who come from top tier schools feel and act like they are awesome. This dramatically helps when it comes to asking for a higher salary, better position, etc. I have met a number of people who didn't go to college, and a lot of them feel they nee…

Most of that. But some of us didn't enjoy parties. Still, the friends I made (20 years ago) are still friends so that part is definitely true.

On the other hand, if I had been digging ditches maybe I would have met and kept friends in the dirt business. Not as lucrative maybe; but the lifelong friend part would still be true. So its maybe not 'college' that yields 'friends' but rather 'being young and in some group'

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