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Apple goes to war with the BBC

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#61

Post by mcphage »

lucaspiller wrote: post #57
Retric wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option. IMO, when it comes to exploitation pay, working conditions, and irregular work schedules can be far more exploitive than simple hours worked. Also, dorm style housing next to a factory dramatically cut down on commute times…

Bear in mind that the salary these workers get is probably less than half that. Last year, according to the Daily Mail (yeah...), they were being paid £180 ($300) per month [0]. The salary these workers get is a small percentage of the retail price of these devices, it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary and provide ethical working conditions. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/…

> it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary

Well, Apple doesn't pay them any salary at all—they're not Apple employees.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#62

Post by WorldWideWayne »

ceejayoz wrote: post #21
hawleyal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foxconn has an anti-suicide policy. There's a reason.

Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia: > Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year f…

Nobody would even be commenting on this if Microsoft or some other company [were] unfairly framed.

Anyway, there seems to be plenty of data that working conditions at Foxconn are harsh. https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+site%3Achinalaborwat...

Stop defending Apple just because you are totally in love with them people...

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#63

Post by ceejayoz »

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #62
ceejayoz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia: > Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year f…

Nobody would even be commenting on this if Microsoft or some other company [were] unfairly framed. Anyway, there seems to be plenty of data that working conditions at Foxconn are harsh. https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+site%3Achinalaborwat... Stop defending Apple just because you are totally in love with them people...

> You wouldn't even be commenting on this if Microsoft [were] unfairly framed.

Yes, I would, and that's actually one of the problematic parts of the Foxconn reporting - they make components for Microsoft and many other companies, but for some reason coverage focuses on just one of their clients, Apple.

Foxconn's working conditions are indeed harsh by developed-world standards, and I'd happily pay a bit more for a phone in order to improve them. At the same time, I can acknowledge that working for Foxconn is likely better than the subsistence farming of the Mao days, and that Foxconn is probably fairly similar to other companies in China doing similar work.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#64

Post by sgnelson »

rtpg wrote: post #2

>Williams countered that Apple has tracked the weekly hours of over one million workers within its supply chain, and that its suppliers have achieved an average of 93 per cent compliance with the 60-hour workweek limit this year. 60 hour workweeks... plus "93% compliance" is not exactly reassuring.

While admittedly, I know nothing about Apple's internal policies and how it tracks these workers and the hours they're working, I wonder how real those numbers are. What I see often (very often) is that people see data and they take the numbers at face value. Could it possibly be that in order to appease Apple, the suppliers are cooking the books on the hours their employees are working? Obviously, in terms of profit margins, they want to squeeze out every penny of labor they can.

What type of data integrity system does Apple have set up to make sure that these are truly the case? With 1 million workers and multiple companies (and all the suppliers) does Apple truly have an independent employee (unaffected by any pressure from factory management) at every factory to watch over the labor standards? I kind of doubt it.

But yes, 60 hour work weeks, how noble of Apple. "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Personally, this really does make me rethink buying an Apple product.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#65

Post by dzhiurgis »

aikah wrote: post #54
dzhiurgis wrote: post #33

Sleeping publicly in asian cultures is perfectly normal. I remember seeing these asian students just passed out on university benches once I started studies abroad. The journalist says 'it seems that they have no choice'. So he just displayed his cultural unconsciousness and publicly alleged Apple of wrongdoing. One could easily speculate that people working in western societies are pumped up with caffeine, sugar or…

> Sleeping publicly in asian cultures is perfectly normal. So is sleeping on the job after 12 hour shifts. The issue isnt sleeping publicly but the 12 hour shift thing. Your argument is a big strawman,even the best spin doctors wouldnt dare using that argument,unless maybe those on fox news.

What is wrong with 12 hour shift?

And what's up with ad hominem?

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#66

Post by rndn »

debacle wrote: post #22
rndn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* as any other company that outsources manufacturing.

So should we not also look down on those companies? Why do we give companies a pass to exploit workers because other companies do as well?

Of course, but naming only Apple is misleading.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#67

Post by dalke »

hawleyal wrote: post #13
dalke wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to compare those numbers to that of other companies or organizations. But even if you stay strictly with US companies, is it possible to find the compliance rate for Microsoft, Google, Twitter, Red Hat, etc., much less the various game studios known for overworking their employees?

I think your argument equates to "Everyone else is doing it mom, why can't I?". It was as much bullshit when you were a kid as it is now.

My argument is as to how angry I should be specifically towards Apple, vs. towards the industry as a whole, the BBC, and us as people, and to inform my decisions on how to improve international working conditions. (Admittedly, that's low on my list.)

If Apple's claim is correct, and "no other company [does] as much as Apple does to ensure fair and safe working conditions, to discover and investigate problems, to fix and follow through when issues arise, and to provide transparency into the operations of our suppliers," then the solution is to push for a change to the laws.

If Apple's claim is completely inverted, and everyone else requires a maximum 40 hour work week with a livable wage, with 100% compliance, then it's time I boycott Apple.

On the third hand, if no one else can report any numbers like this, then attacking Apple for being the first to be transparent about these numbers means that other companies are less likely to publish, or even track, these numbers, because the tall poppies are cut down first. If so, then the BBC is making things worse by attacking Apple for being the only one to be so honest. (This is the one I happen to believe, but have little evidence for.)

On the fourth hand, if Apple is the middle of the pack, then certainly it could be an "Everyone else is doing it" arguments. Except that Apple highlights how they don't think they are in the middle of the pack, and stress why they think that, for example, working with the Indonesian tin mining industry is overall better than not sourcing Indonesian tin.

Of the alternatives, I don't see why you thought I was suggesting the one least supported by the evidence.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#68

Post by kybernetikos »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #20
funkybro wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: Facebook and security/privacy

Or Google and privacy/surveillance. A lot of criticism is just fashion or signalling.

Confused about these two comments. Are you both literally arguing that Google has higher standards for privacy/surveillance than its competitors and that facebook is better than its competitors for security/privacy?

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#69

Post by TeMPOraL »

kybernetikos wrote: post #68
TeMPOraL wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Google and privacy/surveillance. A lot of criticism is just fashion or signalling.

Confused about these two comments. Are you both literally arguing that Google has higher standards for privacy/surveillance than its competitors and that facebook is better than its competitors for security/privacy?

Per TazeTSchnitzel's remark on Apple & McDonald's, also Facebook and Google seem to be held by public to a higher standard than other companies.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#70

Post by diarg »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #9
swombat wrote: post #6

The problem with Apple criticism is a lot of it seems full of cheap shots and unfair framing, like this Panorama report. That makes it more difficult to tell when a criticism of Apple is genuine, because every idiot journalist looking for a controversial story can write a story about something Apple is doing not well enough and get away with it, since everyone seems to love to hate on Apple. So if Apple really is up…

Reminds me a little of how people somehow don't believe McDonalds when they reveal their food sources. Because people love to hate on them, McDs and Apple have higher standards than their competitors.

Is a rational posture, when companies became that BIG they get above the law. I don't trust that companies neither the controls organisms in charge.
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