Apple goes to war with the BBC • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#21

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

hawleyal wrote: post #12

swombat wrote: post #6

The problem with Apple criticism is a lot of it seems full of cheap shots and unfair framing, like this Panorama report. That makes it more difficult to tell when a criticism of Apple is genuine, because every idiot journalist looking for a controversial story can write a story about something Apple is doing not well enough and get away with it, since everyone seems to love to hate on Apple. So if Apple really is up…

Foxconn has an anti-suicide policy. There's a reason.

Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia:

> Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year for workplace suicides at Foxconn with a total of 14 deaths, the total employee count was a reported 930,000 people. The average workplace suicide rate for Foxconn that year was 1.5 per 100,000 making it well below the national average suicide rate (around 7% of the national average).

America and most other nations have no-suicide policies, too. Try it and you'll likely find yourself detained and treated involuntarily. I'm not sure why you're considering such a thing to be a shocking fact.

Congratulations for proving the parent post's "The problem with Apple criticism is a lot of it seems full of cheap shots and unfair framing" statement, though.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#22

Post by debacle » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

rndn wrote: post #16

debacle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 60 hour work week for wage laborers should not be baseline in any country in 2014. Apple is doing what they can to exploit these workers in a PC fashion.

* as any other company that outsources manufacturing.

So should we not also look down on those companies? Why do we give companies a pass to exploit workers because other companies do as well?

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#23

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

rndn wrote: post #16

debacle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 60 hour work week for wage laborers should not be baseline in any country in 2014. Apple is doing what they can to exploit these workers in a PC fashion.

* as any other company that outsources manufacturing.

[deleted]

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#24

Post by Shivetya » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:05 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #11

dalke wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to compare those numbers to that of other companies or organizations. But even if you stay strictly with US companies, is it possible to find the compliance rate for Microsoft, Google, Twitter, Red Hat, etc., much less the various game studios known for overworking their employees?

A 60 hour work week for wage laborers should not be baseline in any country in 2014. Apple is doing what they can to exploit these workers in a PC fashion.

however nothing should prevent workers from performing a 60 hour work week should they choose.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#25

Post by icebraining » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:06 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #21

hawleyal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foxconn has an anti-suicide policy. There's a reason.

Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia: > Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year f…

The Foxconn suicide rate is (often significantly) lower than the rate of every US state, let alone China's.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#26

Post by cujo » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:06 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #19

kalleboo wrote: post #5

I would love to see if they could find a multinational company WITHOUT issues like this in their supply chain - I imagine none exist. (I still support "exposé" programs like this since people need to be reminded what the actual cost of their toys are - but they should cast a broader net)

Apple is the biggest to it must be taken down first. I prefer focused attack on apple than watered down on many fronts.

Apple is the biggest what? They certainly don't make the most anything. Oh, you mean the most headline grabbing.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#27

Post by frabcus » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:10 PM UTC

This is a good place to mention Fairphone, a dutch foundation who make phones and document their supply chain in public, improving various things about it

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#28

Post by maxerickson » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #21

hawleyal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foxconn has an anti-suicide policy. There's a reason.

Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia: > Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year f…

Did you see any numbers that compared it to employed people of similar age?

(Per http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf suicide rates in China are significantly higher above the age of 60)

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#29

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:12 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #24

debacle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 60 hour work week for wage laborers should not be baseline in any country in 2014. Apple is doing what they can to exploit these workers in a PC fashion.

however nothing should prevent workers from performing a 60 hour work week should they choose.

The problem there is preventing coercion. I've heard a number of stories of people working at startups who get in trouble for "not being a team player" or "lacking dedication" because they don't want to work super-long hours.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#30

Post by Retric » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 2:13 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #22

rndn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* as any other company that outsources manufacturing.

So should we not also look down on those companies? Why do we give companies a pass to exploit workers because other companies do as well?

I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option. IMO, when it comes to exploitation pay, working conditions, and irregular work schedules can be far more exploitive than simple hours worked.

Also, dorm style housing next to a factory dramatically cut down on commute times which changes the work life balance equation. It's much like a 50 hour work week with a 1 hour commute which is fairly common in the US.

PS: IMO the US trucking industry is probably more expletive than most Chinese factory's. The hours are often comparable but the risk of death is much higher. And the industry often increases peoples risk of death for just a little more profit.