Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yet it's forced to implement most of the EUs rulings whilst having no say on said rulings. Same for Norway and Iceland.
That's said rather often, but I'm not at all certain that it's true. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100194407/out...
“I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
111–120 of 182 posts
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#112If you are concerned with this, you may want to investigate if basing your company in Switzerland offers more advantage than in EU : its at the center of Europe but doesn't belong to EU.
If a company does not sell to EU citizens, then yes, being based outside in the EU will let you avoid these rules. But if your goal is to sell to EU consumers, basing the company in Switzerland as your European base doesn't help, because for non-EU sellers (and from 1 January, for all sellers), VAT is charged based on the location of the customer; the location of the company is irrelevant. And Switzerland will genera…
a Swiss supplier must charge the VAT rate of the EU
Member State where EU consumers are domiciled or the
services are used and enjoyed
doesn't correlate with reality on my end. I can only guess that the discrepancy is due to this being specific to - Telecommunications and broadcasting companies, as
well as providers of electronic services to consumers
and not to installable software vendors.Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#113Would it be easier if there was a single EU wide VAT rate?
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Things which aren't true: >In the US you can wake up in a hospital after someone rear-ended you, to find you are bankrupt and going to become homeless, even when you had the best insurance. >unless the stock market returns 8% most people are going to have a rough retirement Your health and car insurance covers exactly what it says it covers, and retirement plans aren't a mystery. In America you take personal responsi…
Your health insurance doesn't cover non-covered expenses. That retirement plans aren't a mystery doesn't negate needing 8+% returns to comfortably retire.
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#115" The change was made because EU wants to get more money from American companies " That is not true - VAT is and has always been a tax for the buyer, not the seller. Of course, having VAT is awful for us - in my country it's an astronomical 24%. But that's besides the point.
The point of the changes is to prevent large non-EU companies from going "VAT-shopping": like a certain well known advertising company claiming to sell all their services from a low VAT country when in fact all the business dealings are done in a tower block in the centre of London. Now they have to charge whatever VAT rate each country within the EU thinks is appropriate for their citizens & there's no "race to the…
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
That will be in addition to income and property taxes. By way of example, UK taxes look like: * ~40% income tax, first £10k untaxed. * 20% VAT on most goods (food, books, children's clothes are untaxed, heating fuel is taxed at 5%) * Annual property tax of around £1000 on the typical dwelling. * 28% capital gains tax, first £10k untaxed in any 1 year. Dividends are effectively taxed as additional income. In reality U…
Minor correction on income tax: 0-10K: Untaxed, 10-40K: 20%, 40K+: 40%,
Go do the sums & you'll see. Like I said, the reality is much more complicated, but the figures I gave are roughly in the right ballpark.
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The last three have some form of nationalised healthcare though, which the US does not. Plus a much better retirement plan. In the US you can wake up in a hospital after someone rear-ended you, to find you are bankrupt and going to become homeless, even when you had the best insurance. And unless the stock market returns 8% most people are going to have a rough retirement. In the US you're lucky to get 3 weeks vaca…
Things which aren't true: >In the US you can wake up in a hospital after someone rear-ended you, to find you are bankrupt and going to become homeless, even when you had the best insurance. >unless the stock market returns 8% most people are going to have a rough retirement Your health and car insurance covers exactly what it says it covers, and retirement plans aren't a mystery. In America you take personal responsi…
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#118One thing I can think of is that you could target the payment processors. They already have personal data about the buyer, so they should know where they are located. Most transactions are going to be done by a credit card processing company, or something like PayPal. In either case, the EU could deal with those sorts of companies directly.
In that case, merchants could sell their goods without worrying about tax at all. You buy something at a listed $100, you have 22% local tax, the credit card company charges the buyer $122, seller doesn't have to worry about it. Now, the seller could program some option that could estimate VAT based on geolocation with some disclaimer that the customer will be charged for VAT by the payment processor and are responsible for their own charges. But that would be a courtesy of the seller, the buyer should be aware of their own VAT.
Some things are excluded from VAT, but they are the exception, and in that case, the seller could jump through some small hoops to register with the payment processors to allow those goods to exclude VAT.
There are still other methods of collecting payment, like bitcoin, like money orders, whatever. In those cases, the law should require the buyer to self-assess. In reality the self-assessment would be rarely followed, and honestly nobody would care if it were small purchases. But the self-assessment rules would mean that anyone seriously gaming the system by avoiding compliant payment processing options could be punished, while still both avoiding an less enforceable situation like trying to punish a foreign company for failure to charge local tax, or limiting the payment options that foreign companies can provide.
This could also solve problems with collecting VAT purchases made from foreign entities (instead of just companies from other EU states) and could even be extended further (You are a resident of Luxembourg, you travel and shop in France, you pay with a credit card, you are charged less VAT on the purchase rather than having to claim the difference when you return.)
In short, compel large payment processors to verify the home of buyers when the account is created, compel them to have some checks to avoid fraud. Allow sellers to not charge VAT if the buyer is either using an approved payment processor, or if the buyer is from another country. If you are accepting payment by cash or money order from someone local, then you must charge VAT at the local rate. But if you are accepting a credit card through an approved processor, whether the buyer is local or foreign, you charge the rate pre-tax, and the processor is required to A) add the appropriate VAT, and B) verify that the buyer is not lying about their home country. If you accept a money order from a foreign country, you do not charge VAT, and the buyer self-assesses.
Alternatively, you could say that all purchases that do not go through an approved processor have the local VAT added to them, and the buyer is compelled to self-asses for the difference, it's just a matter of how much you are willing to inconvenience non-EU foreign countries.
But I don't think the seller should be required to ensure that the buyer abides by their local tax rules. I do think that's a task that can be handled by large banks or payment processors.
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's an astronomical 24% That's lower than the income tax rate for a middle class American. Why is this rate astronomical? Are there also high property and income taxes? EDIT: It's an honest question. I know what a VAT is, but I have no frame of reference for how the overall tax scheme is especially egregious for the individual taxpayer. Some other tax rates (income, property, etc.) are surely relevant. A 24% VAT w…
That's the VAT tax, comparable to the sales tax in the US, so this compares as 24% vs ~6% or so in most of the US. Income tax is separate from that, and depends on country to, but seems to work out to quite similar percentages, at least between Germany and the US.
VAT taxes sale, but it's not the same as a "sales tax". The rates don't mean the same thing, and it doesn't make sense to compare them directly without taking that into consideration.
Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”
#120Yes, this has been quite an amazing f-up by the tax authorities in the EU. I wrote a blogpost about it the other day: http://blog.satago.co.uk/2014/11/what-is-this-vatmoss-mess/ imo the major f-up is removing the tax threshold for selling digital goods - even if you sell a £1 kintting pattern you have to register for VAT now.
This is effectively impossible to enforce though, at least for foreign sellers; is that a fair assessment? I'm really not seeing any mechanism whereby the EU could actually force them to pay their taxes when they're selling goods that don't physically exist. Small arts and crafts need to be shipped, software does not. I guess they could pressure payment services (Paypal, Dwolla), but Bitcoin could always be used as a…
In the past in the United States, the providers (such as Amazon) have placed the burden of paying state taxes on the consumer - I wonder if they could, somehow, also make the consumer responsible in this case and thereby continue to operate in the same manner?