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“I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

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Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#41

Post by [deleted] »

nagrom wrote: post #32
humanrebar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an astronomical 24% That's lower than the income tax rate for a middle class American. Why is this rate astronomical? Are there also high property and income taxes? EDIT: It's an honest question. I know what a VAT is, but I have no frame of reference for how the overall tax scheme is especially egregious for the individual taxpayer. Some other tax rates (income, property, etc.) are surely relevant. A 24% VAT w…

You're comparing income tax with sales tax. In the UK, on a salary of £40k (i.e. professional mid-career engineer), before you touch the money, the government takes about 25% for income tax and national insurance. Then, they take 20% of everything else that you spend unless it's non-luxurious foodstuffs, children's clothes or paper books. And, of course, if what you're buying is fuel, they actually take 85% of the pr…

[deleted]

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#42

Post by toyg »

fulafel wrote: post #14
toyg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like this is actually a step in the proper direction. No. A step in the proper direction would be admitting that VAT is a regressive hidden tax on employees, and abolish it or replace it with more transparent taxation of real wealth. Until that happens, we're all just jumping through hoops so that European politicians can tax the working man while hiding behind meaningless "consumption" codewords.

Many essentials like food and bus tickets have lowered (or zero) tax rates, and it's printed on every receipt you get. Not really regressive or hidden. Taxing wealth has big problems with transparency and evasion. Progressive taxation is not a means to an end, just one mechanism to implement income redistribution. See eg basic income proposals with flat income tax. But a worrying trend in EU lately has been to cut pa…

> Many essentials like food and bus tickets have lowered (or zero) tax rates

That's charity, not progressive taxation. Besides, VAT is fixed-rate, which makes it regressive in practice.

> it's printed on every receipt you get

But nobody is taught how it works, in school or elsewhere, and unless you run your own business you'll never find out. Also, because it's segmented, atomic changes to different segments are usually reported under "business news" (unless it's for stuff like petrol and tobacco), the sort of thing most readers will skip. Honestly, the more you look into VAT, the more you see how it's always been used to raise taxes on employees without making them aware.

> Taxing wealth has big problems with transparency and evasion

Preying on the weak is obviously easier, that's always been the case. It doesn't make it right.

> a combination which does hurt income equality.

Amen.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#43

Post by Major_Grooves »

Yes, this has been quite an amazing f-up by the tax authorities in the EU. I wrote a blogpost about it the other day: http://blog.satago.co.uk/2014/11/what-is-this-vatmoss-mess/

imo the major f-up is removing the tax threshold for selling digital goods - even if you sell a £1 kintting pattern you have to register for VAT now.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#44

Post by hackerboos »

nagrom wrote: post #34
hackerboos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet it's forced to implement most of the EUs rulings whilst having no say on said rulings. Same for Norway and Iceland.

That's said rather often, but I'm not at all certain that it's true. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100194407/out...

> Switzerland signed up to the EU’s customs union in 1972, which abolished subsidy and tariff barriers. Since then, it has also decided to sign up to the majority of the single market: it is a full member of the single market for goods, a signatory to the Schengen agreement, and it has signed up to most of the single market for capital. In many areas, therefore, Switzerland is effectively a member of the single market. But like Norway, it does not have the ability to affect the rules that govern it. [1]

Just because the Swiss are not in the EEA doesn't mean they aren't force to adopt EU policy. Their exports depend on it.

[1] - http://centreforeuropeanreform.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/britai...

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#45

Post by tartuffe78 »

nagrom wrote: post #32
humanrebar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an astronomical 24% That's lower than the income tax rate for a middle class American. Why is this rate astronomical? Are there also high property and income taxes? EDIT: It's an honest question. I know what a VAT is, but I have no frame of reference for how the overall tax scheme is especially egregious for the individual taxpayer. Some other tax rates (income, property, etc.) are surely relevant. A 24% VAT w…

You're comparing income tax with sales tax. In the UK, on a salary of £40k (i.e. professional mid-career engineer), before you touch the money, the government takes about 25% for income tax and national insurance. Then, they take 20% of everything else that you spend unless it's non-luxurious foodstuffs, children's clothes or paper books. And, of course, if what you're buying is fuel, they actually take 85% of the pr…

The US does have medicare and medicaid, which aren't universal but still are nationalized healthcare for a lot of people.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#46

Post by toomuchtodo »

nagrom wrote: post #32
humanrebar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an astronomical 24% That's lower than the income tax rate for a middle class American. Why is this rate astronomical? Are there also high property and income taxes? EDIT: It's an honest question. I know what a VAT is, but I have no frame of reference for how the overall tax scheme is especially egregious for the individual taxpayer. Some other tax rates (income, property, etc.) are surely relevant. A 24% VAT w…

You're comparing income tax with sales tax. In the UK, on a salary of £40k (i.e. professional mid-career engineer), before you touch the money, the government takes about 25% for income tax and national insurance. Then, they take 20% of everything else that you spend unless it's non-luxurious foodstuffs, children's clothes or paper books. And, of course, if what you're buying is fuel, they actually take 85% of the pr…

> US has a 30% tax burden, UK has a 40% tax burden. France and Germany have >50% tax burdens. The last three have some form of nationalised healthcare though, which the US does not.

As a US citizen, I'm happy to have an increased tax burden for legislated vacation/holiday days and 20% of the population not having medical bills they can't pay for.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#47

Post by Retric »

nagrom wrote: post #32
humanrebar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an astronomical 24% That's lower than the income tax rate for a middle class American. Why is this rate astronomical? Are there also high property and income taxes? EDIT: It's an honest question. I know what a VAT is, but I have no frame of reference for how the overall tax scheme is especially egregious for the individual taxpayer. Some other tax rates (income, property, etc.) are surely relevant. A 24% VAT w…

You're comparing income tax with sales tax. In the UK, on a salary of £40k (i.e. professional mid-career engineer), before you touch the money, the government takes about 25% for income tax and national insurance. Then, they take 20% of everything else that you spend unless it's non-luxurious foodstuffs, children's clothes or paper books. And, of course, if what you're buying is fuel, they actually take 85% of the pr…

The only important number is government spending as % of GDP. US ~38%, UK ~42%. However the UK has universal heathcare where US simply mandates health insurance making the effective tax burden lower in the UK.

In either case the US tax burden is close enough to EU levels not to make a significant difference.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#48

Post by maaku »

tartuffe78 wrote: post #45
nagrom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing income tax with sales tax. In the UK, on a salary of £40k (i.e. professional mid-career engineer), before you touch the money, the government takes about 25% for income tax and national insurance. Then, they take 20% of everything else that you spend unless it's non-luxurious foodstuffs, children's clothes or paper books. And, of course, if what you're buying is fuel, they actually take 85% of the pr…

The US does have medicare and medicaid, which aren't universal but still are nationalized healthcare for a lot of people.

Nationalized health insurance, which is a little different.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#49

Post by nagrom »

hackerboos wrote: post #44
nagrom wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's said rather often, but I'm not at all certain that it's true. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100194407/out...

> Switzerland signed up to the EU’s customs union in 1972, which abolished subsidy and tariff barriers. Since then, it has also decided to sign up to the majority of the single market: it is a full member of the single market for goods, a signatory to the Schengen agreement, and it has signed up to most of the single market for capital. In many areas, therefore, Switzerland is effectively a member of the single marke…

Same as Norway, indeed. But Norway has implemented just 5,000 pieces of EU legislation in the last 22 years, whereas the UK has, on average, implemented 3,000 pieces per year. [I'm sticking to Norway, because it is the region that I have facts and figures for - I don't know the figures for Switzerland.]

The claim the Norway and Switzerland are governed remotely by the EU is therefore not true - either that, or the Norwegian law somehow pre-empts EU law, and thus complies with it before it is passed? (Which makes it sound like Norway governs the EU, and not the other way around :p).

I'm not claiming that Norway is de-coupled from the EU, just that the claim that it is governed remotely by a body in which it has no say is false.

Re: “I’m in the US – what if I just ignore the EU VAT changes?”

#50

Post by icebraining »

maaku wrote: post #48
tartuffe78 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does have medicare and medicaid, which aren't universal but still are nationalized healthcare for a lot of people.

Nationalized health insurance, which is a little different.

Isn't that the case in Germany as well?
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