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The drug revolution that no one can stop

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Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#91
post #64
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented about using any drug entails some finite risk of bad effects. The apparently common belief that "designer drugs" shouldn't be "illegal" is certainly not supported by the article. I can see your line of thinking: X has risks, X should not be done, thus make X illegal and X will not be done and the risk will no longer exist. But that's not the way the world works. Making X illegal does not prevent X being d…

There's also the unspoken "X has risks, and I don't want to do X, therefore X should be illegal". I ride motorcycles. I have friends and family involved in scuba diving, paragliding, football, rock climbing, hell - even horse riding. _All_ of those activities have "well known risks of serious injury or death" associated with them, and each of them I've heard recent stories of death in the extended circles of my famil…

I have one friend in his late 60's who just bought a new motorcycle. His wife was displeased with his decision though might be tempted to ride along sometimes. Another friend decided to stop riding a few years back because he felt it was too risky for him to continue.

Point is with motorcycles, cars, scuba, yes, even horses, the risks are more or less known and probability of various outcomes, including harm, can be reasoned about.

With drugs the estimation of probable outcomes is orders of magnitude more difficult to compute. To say it again, all drugs have numerous effects which vary greatly among recipients, and even for established agents most drug effects have received little or no study. However we do have a systematic track record of the AEs encountered, and after millions of cases we have a pretty good idea of how to use the agent safely.

Legal status notwithstanding, a drug with potent enough effects to be interesting is asymptotically guaranteed to have adverse effects in some members of the population of potential users. It means effects of a new and arcane product are no more than a total crap shoot.

Since even low frequencies of AEs may disqualify a drug as "safe", regulatory bodies require testing sufficiently large number of subjects under tightly controlled conditions to show evidence that it's safe enough to justify its proposed uses.

Without such study it is impossible to evaluate the use of an unvetted drug in the same way as riding a motorcycle. The information about benefits and risks is just not known. There is simply no basis for making a rational decision.

As a clinician and scientist questions of prohibition are largely beside the point. People will continue to do stupid things laws aside. However, laws/rules exist as a benchmark, and optimally serve as a statement of our communal ethical stance. Not that it's going to stop people who are determined to use a prohibited drug anyway, but maybe it supports restraint in some people who are "on the edge".

In respect to designer drugs, I'm very reluctant to say let's have no regulations at all, that anything goes, because logically lack of safety data leaves us to assume the risk of harm is significant. The burden of proof ought to be on the shoulders of those who assert use of the drugs is just harmless diversion.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#93
post #80

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Or maybe people just shouldn't take drugs.

Or maybe people just shouldn't get cancer, get old and kill each other? Common, that's simply too naive for anybody over 5 years old to think of as a solution.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#94
post #80

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Or maybe people just shouldn't take drugs.

How extraordinarily bland. Even animals are known to take drugs, and not just primates. Eating fermented fruits, licking psychedelic caterpillars, all of that has been documented. Many drugs are harmless compared to alcohol.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#95
post #46

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Yeah, it looks like the entire legislative approach is wrong and doing more harm than good. It'd be nice to see more focus on education and building up knowledge. Perhaps even a well designed website (including first-class mobile support) that we could link drug users to that describe the effects in an easy to search and digest format. If people want to do stupid things to themselves, let them. We've found that legal…

http://www.talktofrank.com/

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#97
Seems to me ingesting any chemical compound cooked up in an unknown/uncontrolled environment, whether that enviro is the design or manufacturing side of things makes you an active seeker of the Darwin Award.

What's irritating is the expense of public resources bailing people out of the pursuit of the Darwin Award. Of course the same could be said for smoking, consumption driven obesity, excessive alcohol intake, etc.

The comment here regarding personal accountability sums it. I suspect if the financial disincentive is high enough on any one of these topics, people will deselect participation in said activity. Otherwise society will (or should) deselect them as beneficiaries of resources, etc..harsh, but what other practical course of action is there?

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#98
post #63
post #17

Interesting that this article, originally investigated and published over a year ago, mentions phenmetrazine - derivatives have just started to appear on the grey market.... --edit-- I'm amazed at the quote from Caldicott at the end. WEDINOS is widely used by the NPS community to check the identity of their substances. It allows the project to map out drug emergence and for the users it provides a little safety check…

Phenmetrazine is itself a "designer drug"; as sort of explained in the article, it differs from amphetamine by an oxygen and a couple of carbons forming a morpholine ring including the amine moiety, and its designers hoped it would have some of amphetamine's effects (like weight loss) with less side effects. As with most designer phenethylamines, this turned out badly, though not as badly as e.g. Fen/Phen. (There hav…

Yes, actually, there are no phenmetrazine derivatives in PiHKAL, and yes one has just recently started to appear on the grey market in the last few months. 3-FPM. There is one other derivative, phendimetrazine, which is prescribed for some of the purposes phenmetrazine originally was. It is considered a prodrug for phenmetrazine though, so not really a unique thing in its own right.

Phenmetrazine was originally banned because it was widely abused, not really because of any health reasons above and beyond the likes of dex-amphetamine, so far as I can tell, rather than anything like Fen/Phen which causes heart valve mutations.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#99
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a minority that are interested in novelty for its own ends. But you're right, most people that buy these things would be safer and happier with well-known, illegal drugs.

But how do you propose they buy them, when the legal highs are indistinguishable from them at a glance, and are cheaper and easier for dealers to buy?

I don't personally propose to buy them, but I do propose that society legalises and regulates several more drugs after cannabis, and that it legalises and regulates research into less harmful recreational substances.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#100
post #28

This article fits in with another thread here earlier today where I commented about using any drug entails some finite risk of bad effects. The apparently common belief that "designer drugs" shouldn't be "illegal" is certainly not supported by the article. I'm not sure what makes it so hard for some people to grasp the intrinsic dangers of ingesting "designer" drugs. Our physiology is complex and quirky, rendering al…

I'd much rather take an illegal drug than a legal, 'under the radar' one. The personal risks of possibly getting thrown in jail are vastly dwarfed by the risks of ingesting an untested and completely unknown substance. The sad thing is that even the illegal ones often involve a terrible externalized human cost. Illegal drugs are consumed at scale, exploiting the producers and transporters, legal ones are consumed ind…

>> The personal risks of possibly getting thrown in jail are vastly dwarfed by the risks of ingesting an untested and completely unknown substance.

False dichotomy in the modern age, unfortunately. You have no way of knowing what's in that illegal drug. It might be (and often is) exactly the same stuff.

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