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Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

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Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#181

If this moves you, follow Einstein's logic to today's world and join in the struggle. There are marches today, consider this your invitation! SF: https://www.facebook.com/events/675598982556580/ Oakland: https://www.facebook.com/events/858052834217501/ NYC: https://www.facebook.com/events/959630214065046/ Boston: https://www.facebook.com/events/1559794327598726/ (and I'm sure there's one near where you live as well)

Garner, from what we know, seems to be a man who did nothing seriously wrong during his encounter with the police. It is quite disturbing that this encounter resulted in his death. It's not even clear that he should have been having an encounter with the police in the first place. We can look at Garner, and see that a great injustice happened to him. Compare to Brown. The police had a very good reason to stop him (wa…

Indeed, what Brown did would have gotten any of us shot.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#182
post #93

I hope what I have to say is not as controversial as I fear, but I don't think that individual racist beliefs are as big a problem as we have been told. To look at somebody and consciously judge them to be inferior based on their skin color is so outdated and obsolete, that those who do so are fringe members of society who are typically elderly and either changing their mindset or dying out. We elected a black presid…

I disagree with your argument. Here are my thoughts why. We have been 'looking beyond our superficial differences' for a while and it hasn't done anything. I actually think 'not seeing race' is itself a form of racism, because a lot of our racism is subconscious, or cultural.

We don't have a racism of segregation anymore. It's a racism of omission. Instead there are pay gaps, unfair justice, stereotypes and erasure. EG: It's not that we censor out black music on the radio, we just prefer it when a white person sings it (macklemore, iggy azalea, eminem, miley, etc).

It works the same way as telling woman: "oh I don't see you as a woman in the workplace. I don't expect you to get pregnant or have health issues different from men. I expect you to have someone at home who takes care of your kids (like a wife would). And then I will subconsciously expect you to be more caring and nice than your male coworkers (if you disagree with anything I say I will call you a frigid bitch)". The roles we put women in are gendered, like EG: we don't expect a secretary to be a woman but if she is, she'll get very different treatment from a male secretary (who is more likely to be called Operations, won't have to pick up everybody's laundry and order lunch, etc. This happens for real).

Back to racism. Racism is still a _big_ problem for a lot of people. Police can strangle black people _on camera_ and get away without even a trial. Cops drove up to a black child with a toy gun, shot him, then did not even call an ambulance or provide emergency CPR. Police officers barged into a house and shot a 7 year old black girl while she was sleeping. (They said they had the wrong house). No repercussions. Not a settlement, not an apology, no reaction.

Young black men are 21 more times more likely to be shot by a police officer than their white counterparts.

When you tell someone 'I don't see you black' what you are saying is "I am ignoring the struggles you face on a daily basis and also will continue to subconsciously treat you negatively". Ask a black person how many times they get called Bro, homie, or 'my nigga' by people 'who don't see them as black'. And in the public consciousness, black people are seen as demons, monsters, thugs. (further reading: the blue eye brown eye experiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZKWkhnSb5k)

> The idea that certain groups of people (blacks, women, gays, etc) need compulsory protection at the expense of other groups (white males), induces a sort of resentment as a response to what is perceived to be a witch hunt.

White males have been oppressing these marginalized groups for millennia. White male culture is homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, and racist too. If you would like examples I can give plenty. If you want stats I can give those too.

Brendan Eich's dismissal isn't irrational. A group of people decided that they didn't want a homophobic CEO.

I think the reason these events might seen incoherent is because they look like small, one time things that bring up a large public reaction, one person's slip-up here or a wrong sentence uttered here. But:

1) The things said reflect a deep hatred of the group they are against. You have really hate black people to nigger like Paula Dean did. Eich is clearly homophobic if he donates to anti gay marriage groups.

2) They might seem like one group is targeted out of the blue, but to the oppressed group these events are another thing on the long list of violence done against them. For example, if you were a woman at a tech conference and heard a thousand different dongle jokes, POSIX forking references, images of naked women, etc, on the thousand and oneth dongle joke you might get angry too. That might be seen as irrational, because hey, it's just a joke... It's not. Culture is the sum total of our collective experiences, it's made of a gajillion little things put together. People have the right to complain about these little things, like t-shirts that don't fit women at conferences. If everywhere you looked you found 'little' examples of people like you getting the short end of the stick, you wouldn't be too happy either.

3) Sometimes these things might seem out of the blue because of the way collective consciousness works. Recently twitter directed a lot of attention at a company called Strange Fruit PR. The words Strange Fruit refer to a song about lynchings, where trees in the South 'bear strange fruit', aka dead black men. If we saw a PR company called Holocaust PR or something like "arbeit macht frei" PR (a common sign posted in nazi concentration camps that said "work makes you free") we'd also freak out. Strange Fruit is two years old and it just came to twitter's attention, so it seems out of the blue, but it's just happened now because a critical mass of people found out about it recently. Sometimes it takes a while to build the political momentum to have a conversation on something.

> It's this "us vs. them" victim mentality that's the problem in mainstream America.

Black people in the US have as a group been enslaved, raped, economically enslaved, lynched, raped, denied votes, denied education, denied space in the community, denied housing, denied loans (see redlining), ignored, shot by the police, etc for the entire history of America (those where random examples). I don't think it's very human to tell them to ignore the past (and ongoing racism) and that there is no longer a 'us' and a 'them'.

If you disagree I would like to know why you don't think the above applies.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#183
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share deep concern about police militarization and police brutality. These problems have been raised for years, particularly in the context of War on Drugs, but also in larger context of alienation of population from the government, and were largely ignored by the wide public, happy to be "tough on crime" and laughing at those libertarian idiots with their obviously exaggerated concerns. It is good thing that the t…

"All lives matter" sounds a little different when you consider it in context: http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2014/12/08/all-things-consider...

That picture illustrates somebody putting water not on "all" houses but on one house - that does not appear to be burning (while attributing to the imaginary opponent the exceptionally stupid strawman argument of "we should always care about everything equally", which nobody ever has made) The implication to the current situation would be that somebody claims only non-black lives matter while the problem - I take the problem to be police brutality in general, or underlying causes of it, whatever you consider them be, since in the specific instances it is too late to do anything to prevent it, and as such can not be represented as "putting water on the fire" - does not happen exactly to such people. I do not think this is an adequate representation of the issue (see ESR link for more on that). But, the exclusivity is not the largest problem - I get the event-reaction pattern and the fact that specific instance can represent larger issue (even though I disagree with what exactly the large issue is). The violence is what I have the most problem with.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#184

If this moves you, follow Einstein's logic to today's world and join in the struggle. There are marches today, consider this your invitation! SF: https://www.facebook.com/events/675598982556580/ Oakland: https://www.facebook.com/events/858052834217501/ NYC: https://www.facebook.com/events/959630214065046/ Boston: https://www.facebook.com/events/1559794327598726/ (and I'm sure there's one near where you live as well)

Garner, from what we know, seems to be a man who did nothing seriously wrong during his encounter with the police. It is quite disturbing that this encounter resulted in his death. It's not even clear that he should have been having an encounter with the police in the first place. We can look at Garner, and see that a great injustice happened to him. Compare to Brown. The police had a very good reason to stop him (wa…

> and he attacked the police officer and tried to take the officer's gun

This is disputed by witness testimony: same say this happened, others say it didn't. Other testimony indicates that Wilson may have instigated conflict when making the stop.

> Looking at Brown, we see a man who did something really stupid, and suffered pretty much the same outcome that we'd expect for anyone in that situation.

This is not at all the case. Wilson shot Brown when we was a significant distance from the car (100+ feet) and Brown was not armed in any way. We do not expect someone who commits a petty theft to be executed by the police when Wilson had a variety of other options at his disposal. Doing something stupid isn't and should not be a death sentence.

> Lumping Garner and Brown together, like these protestors are doing, seems to me to be an insult to the memory of Eric Garner.

These deaths are wholly related to the racism of police practice in the United States. Presenting disputed testimony as the truth is extremely misleading.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garner, from what we know, seems to be a man who did nothing seriously wrong during his encounter with the police. It is quite disturbing that this encounter resulted in his death. It's not even clear that he should have been having an encounter with the police in the first place. We can look at Garner, and see that a great injustice happened to him. Compare to Brown. The police had a very good reason to stop him (wa…

> and he attacked the police officer and tried to take the officer's gun This is disputed by witness testimony: same say this happened, others say it didn't. Other testimony indicates that Wilson may have instigated conflict when making the stop. > Looking at Brown, we see a man who did something really stupid, and suffered pretty much the same outcome that we'd expect for anyone in that situation. This is not at all…

This is disputed by witness testimony: same say this happened, others say it didn't.

I didn't downvote (I think there's entirely too much of that on HN) but Brown's blood was inside the police car. There is no scenario that Brown's blood could have wound up inside the car unless he was reaching in through the window for some reason. Can anyone think of any reason other than "reaching for the Officer's gun," even if we give Brown every possible benefit of the doubt? I'd love to be persuaded.

We have to look at the physical evidence, not at what people said.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#186
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share deep concern about police militarization and police brutality. These problems have been raised for years, particularly in the context of War on Drugs, but also in larger context of alienation of population from the government, and were largely ignored by the wide public, happy to be "tough on crime" and laughing at those libertarian idiots with their obviously exaggerated concerns. It is good thing that the t…

Every time there is a legitimate concern about a possible current/future problem, it seems something happens to either dismiss - or divide those against it. It's really an interesting phenomenon. Most people believe truth is relative though, so I guess it's not logically surprising that there is no consensus.

I'm not sure what "the truth is relative" means. Do you claim that some event may have happened or not happened depending on your point of view - I mean, really happened or not happened, not just our knowledge of it could be possibly wrong or incomplete? I'd say "citation needed" on the claim that most people believe in such thing.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#187
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why this is being downvoted... People are asking above "What, however, can the man of good will do to combat this deeply rooted prejudice?". One prong of this prejudice is the structure of our justice system, and participating in these marches can help that.

I share deep concern about police militarization and police brutality. These problems have been raised for years, particularly in the context of War on Drugs, but also in larger context of alienation of population from the government, and were largely ignored by the wide public, happy to be "tough on crime" and laughing at those libertarian idiots with their obviously exaggerated concerns. It is good thing that the t…

> But when I read recent reports about arson, looting, windows smashed, trash cans overturned and lit on fire, businesses destroyed, police officers assaulted with rocks, explosives and firebombs, millions of damages caused, when I read about "burn that bitch down" - I think maybe this particular instance is not what I want to be part of at all. Maybe associating with this wouldn't do as much to combat either public perception of police needing to be tough or any particular prejudices.

If you really were deeply concerned about police brutality and its disproportionate application against black people, then you would wholly understand that and outburst of anger and violence is a likely reaction when people are pushed to their limit.

The current wave of protests are not those riots, they are organized action to protest this reality. Moreover, your approval means nothing while those lives are still destroyed and dominated by unjust systems and institutions.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest peaceful protests on this issue is happening today, across the nation, but you wouldn't know it from the Hacker News frontpage. It's been troubling seeing any links about the Ferguson and Eric Garner protests wiped from Hacker News before they attract very many upvotes. The issues being debated encompass government action, fundamental technology and privacy rights, as well as race, but they're bein…

The intent of Hacker News is to be news of particular interest to the "hacker" (defined in a somewhat unclear and unusually broad way, but still) community, not particularly news of general interests that is of interest to members of that community for generally the same reason and to the same extent as of the more general community. There are plenty of other forums with different intended purposes where such discuss…

I argue that a good hacker would be interested in these things. First, hackers care a lot about issues of justice, power and bias. Here people are being strangled on camera and their murderers are getting away with it. And, even the 'body cameras on all cops' idea we were clamoring for didn't help. That's a conversation we have to have: bodycams won't be helpful if America keeps on working this way.

Plus, how can we talk about wanting to have a 'diverse' Silicon Valley and ignore black people getting killed in the streets?

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#189
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why this is being downvoted... People are asking above "What, however, can the man of good will do to combat this deeply rooted prejudice?". One prong of this prejudice is the structure of our justice system, and participating in these marches can help that.

I share deep concern about police militarization and police brutality. These problems have been raised for years, particularly in the context of War on Drugs, but also in larger context of alienation of population from the government, and were largely ignored by the wide public, happy to be "tough on crime" and laughing at those libertarian idiots with their obviously exaggerated concerns. It is good thing that the t…

I don't understand why you were downvoted.

Can somebody (preferably a downvoter) explain it to me?

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garner, from what we know, seems to be a man who did nothing seriously wrong during his encounter with the police. It is quite disturbing that this encounter resulted in his death. It's not even clear that he should have been having an encounter with the police in the first place. We can look at Garner, and see that a great injustice happened to him. Compare to Brown. The police had a very good reason to stop him (wa…

> and he attacked the police officer and tried to take the officer's gun This is disputed by witness testimony: same say this happened, others say it didn't. Other testimony indicates that Wilson may have instigated conflict when making the stop. > Looking at Brown, we see a man who did something really stupid, and suffered pretty much the same outcome that we'd expect for anyone in that situation. This is not at all…

You understand pretty much any testimony can be - and usually is - "disputed" and it doesn't mean it is wrong? "Disputed" just means somebody said "no, it is not so". Anybody can say that - just as anybody could have said they saw the police officer shooting Brown in the back, despite the autopsy finding no trace of that. Some did. That doesn't mean the officer actually shot Brown in the back with vanishing bullets.

>>> Brown was not armed in any way

I think it's time to lay that "not armed in any way" to rest. Most physically fit males - especially ones of Brown's physical build - are "armed" to cause serious physical harm, up to lethal, to many other people. People regularly harm and murder other people with their bare hands (or feet, etc.) - over 800 cases happen even year[1], btw about the same as rifles and shotguns taken together. Does it mean police is justified to shoot any male? Of course not, since means to do something not equals to doing something. But it does not mean that if somebody is not wielding a shotgun, he is automatically harmless. There are a lot of ways to cause harm to people, and some of them require nothing more but the will to do it and a bit of strength.

[1] http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.x...

Edit: I used the word "complexion" instead of "physical appearance" meaning: "General character, aspect, or appearance:" but it looks like people took it to mean "skin color". Of course I did not mean to refer to color of his skin, it's completely irrelevant, but rather to his physical build - i.e. height, weight and fitness. Looking at the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complexion) my meaning appears to be old one, and now it is used as "skin color". It didn't help that in my native tongue the same word also means "physical appearance". I certainly did not mean it that way, so sorry for misleading.

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