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Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

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Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contributes to Google's monopolization of web standards Make sure to let all the Opera devs working on web standards know this. It'll save them a bunch of hassle to know they're just wasting their time! You can't advance the open web with FUD.

> Make sure to let all the Opera devs working on web standards know this. I don't mean to denigrate their work, nor have I forgotten Opera's role in the fight for web standards, but in the case of Blink, their contributions pale in comparison to Google's. Check the graph at http://browserg.nom.es/#commitsByOrganization , and note that the vertical axis is not linear. Opera's commit volume to Blink is 7% of Google's.…

Been waiting for shadow Dom for years now.

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox's JS is pretty speedy too though, and it's faster than Chrome for things compiled with emscripten due to asm.js, like every Humble Mozilla Bundle game, anything made with Unity or Unreal Engine, anything using stuff like sql.js or other C libraries, etc.

Benchmarks tell me that Firefox's throughput is better at this point, and I have no reason to doubt it, but I also know from direct experience that variance in performance is far, far higher with Firefox. I don't think I've ever run any asm.js other than demos. PS: I just ran Octane 2.0. The SplayLatency test looks like it's designed to test what I'm talking about; I get 25k in Chrome, but only 9k in FF. http://devel…

Here's the problem with SplayLatency.

SplayLatency computes the root-mean-squared allocation time, and your final score is the reciprocal of that, scaled by some constant. Let's call the RMS measurement the "badness"; more badness is worse on this benchmark.

Say you're allocating 1000 objects and object allocation itself takes 0 time so all that's being measured is the GC. You plan to GC them all before your JS runs to completion. You consider two alternate strategies.

One strategy is to perform a GC run every 10 allocations, each of which collects 10 objects. For simplicity, say each GC has 1s of overhead and takes 1s per object collected. So each of your GCs will take 11s. So you will have sqrt((100 * 11^2 + 900 * 0)/1000) = sqrt(12.1) as your "badness" score on the benchmark, and will take 1100s to finish.

Now the second strategy: one GC every 100 allocations. Now each GC takes 101s, and it only takes 1010s to finish. But the splay "badness" score is sqrt((10 * 101^2 + 990 * 0)/1000) = sqrt(102.01).

So per the benchmark the better strategy is the "GC more often" one. But for animations the _second_ strategy is better in this case, because the animations can't run while the JS is running to completion anyway. So as long as both strategies are collecting all the garbage before run-to-completion finishes, the one that's better for animations is the one with higher throughput. But that's the one Splay scores worse.

Back to the real problem we're trying to solve: what hurts animations is a GC strategy that aims for higher throughput by letting garbage pile up across multiple runs to completion and then ends up with a long GC pause at some point. Having a benchmark that penalized that sort of GC strategy would in fact be a good idea. But Splay is not that benchmark. In fact, the optimal GC strategy on Splay is to not GC at all until the benchmark finishes and then do one big GC that takes forever but isn't measured as part of the benchmark time.

Basically, SplayLatency sets up perverse incentives where the simplest ways to do better on the benchmark involve making animation pauses _worse_.

It's also possible to improve the score on SplayLatency by actually improving the throughput of your GC, but that's a lot more work than the other approaches, and just as likely to regress this benchmark if you do it by chunking your GC more within a single run to completion.

The end result is that improvements to this benchmark's score have little to do with reduction of user-visible GC pauses.

You can see some more in-depth discussion in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958492 but the above basically summarizes what's going on. The fix in that bug ended up just shuffling work around within a single run to completion to placate this benchmark, and the hard part was doing it in a way that didn't regress things too much for actual real-life animation use cases...

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#203
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

another entity is doing the search. What? It redirects your browser to Google, it's you doing the search, not any other entity. They don't proxy or anything.

He means that, for example, "!hn rust" would search hacker news directly for rust, whereas "hacker news rust" on google would do a similar job but via google, informing google of your search.

Sorry, ripdog and icebraining - I got it wrong. I hadn't played with ddg for a while and my memory was in error - I recalled !g returning google results in the ddg interface. My mistake.

I couldn't correct it because of HN's stupid 5-comment policy that applies to comments made in all threads combined, and couldn't edit the original comment with a correction as it had been more than an hour. :/

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#204

I always joke to my friends that why Chrome didn't bring extension support to Android - Because extension support will hurt Google's mobile ads revenue so deeply if you can install adblock with one click. So, please also consider support a non-profit organization like Mozilla, when their products are actually not weaker.

>non-profit organization Apart from when they switch existing users settings over to Yahoo by default.

They put you on Google by default for the exact same reason they are switching over to Yahoo as default now.

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#205
I'd really like someone to come along and make a Webkit/Blink based browser that doesn't suck. I'd pay for it.

Neither Chrome nor Firefox respects my operating system. Both of them take up the whole title-bar with their tabs, rendering useless the window functions that depend on that area. They have non-standard menu systems and very poor keyboard acceleration. Chrome gives you zero control over things like HTML5 video auto-play and I just can't stand to use Firefox because they keep changing the UI and it gets worse every time.

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#206

I always joke to my friends that why Chrome didn't bring extension support to Android - Because extension support will hurt Google's mobile ads revenue so deeply if you can install adblock with one click. So, please also consider support a non-profit organization like Mozilla, when their products are actually not weaker.

I like the Adblock app for Android that runs it's own proxy, thereby filtering ads from all apps, including the browser.

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#207
post #186

Why isn't Google facing the same issues Microsoft faced back in the Windows + IE dominant days?

This is just a possibility, but according to Julian Assange, Google works for the US State Dept and the FBI and CIA have unfettered access to users' emails.

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#208

I'd really like someone to come along and make a Webkit/Blink based browser that doesn't suck. I'd pay for it. Neither Chrome nor Firefox respects my operating system. Both of them take up the whole title-bar with their tabs, rendering useless the window functions that depend on that area. They have non-standard menu systems and very poor keyboard acceleration. Chrome gives you zero control over things like HTML5 vid…

Using MATE [1] I don't have this problem at all.

1: http://mate-desktop.org/

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contributes to Google's monopolization of web standards Make sure to let all the Opera devs working on web standards know this. It'll save them a bunch of hassle to know they're just wasting their time! You can't advance the open web with FUD.

> Make sure to let all the Opera devs working on web standards know this. I don't mean to denigrate their work, nor have I forgotten Opera's role in the fight for web standards, but in the case of Blink, their contributions pale in comparison to Google's. Check the graph at http://browserg.nom.es/#commitsByOrganization , and note that the vertical axis is not linear. Opera's commit volume to Blink is 7% of Google's.…

You purposely cut out that they are shipping shadow dom in conjunction with Mozilla. That was literally the next statement where you cut your quote. And if you continue to read the conversation this was all talked about and is basically a draft spec, they just haven't finished writing it up, but all the talking and consensus building was done and documented in the f2f minutes.

Re: Yahoo Starts Prompting Chrome Users to “Upgrade” to Firefox

#210
post #125

I love Firefox but it is unusable on my Android phone because it uses close to 100% CPU (I tried the latest version less then 2 weeks ago) ... edit: downvote me, but Firefox is still way too CPU intensive on Android

Interesting. I use it as a daily driver on a lower powered phone (Moto G first gen) and in fact, it's about the only browser that works well on my older Android tablet (Dell Streak 7 on HC).
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