College for Grownups • Hacker News Board

Re: College for Grownups

#21

Post by aruss » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 8:58 PM UTC

What this article, and many commentators in this thread, are forgetting is that the college/university system is not designed primarily for education. The reason why the college system is tailored toward young adults is because we as a culture have decided that college is the place for young adults to "find themselves." College is often the first time young adults begin living on their own; putting them in a structured institution with their peers is how many kids learn how to "grow up" (in particular, the children of privileged individuals who also want their children to receive some sort of education/job training). There are other issues with the higher education as an institution, but the segregation between older adults ("nontraditional" students) is not one of them, nor is the seeming lack of responsibility found at college (though sexual assault and substance abuse are serious issues that need to be addressed) - it's a defining part of the American "college experience."

It could be argued that you can "find yourself" without college, and while that's absolutely true I would say that it's hard to find a better institution to do so (other problems like rising tuition/loans notwithstanding).

Re: College for Grownups

#22

Post by ethanpoole » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

At the University of Minnesota, those with degrees from the university can audit courses at a greatly reduced rate. I'm not sure whether this applies to online courses, but it's very likely that it does. During my undergraduate education there, I encountered many such post-degree students; they were quite a joy to have in class.

Re: College for Grownups

#23

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:05 PM UTC

mbrundle wrote: post #20

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

No you're not. My background is biochemistry (UK degree), biomedical image processing (UK PhD) and web development (self-taught). After a decade of academic research in medical imaging, I'm now moving more towards pure tech. I'd love to go back to uni, say full time for 6-12 months, either in the US or UK, and rigorously study the fundamentals of Computer Science, however I haven't found a mechanism that really works…

This is pretty much the target, a 2 year program that covers basics to mastery in a particular subject. I have seen folks who have put together curriculums for that out of MOOC lists but it hasn't gotten nearly the attention it deserves. My theory is that if could retrain for a new discipline in 2 years it would strongly mitigate the notion of 'structural' unemployment. Particularly if you already had the basics down (aka an undergraduate degree). I suggested to the Alumni group at USC that such a program, a "mini-bachelors+masters" might make for something they could provide their alumni (or others) that would both get them more tuition dollars and help people.

Re: College for Grownups

#24

Post by nlh » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:07 PM UTC

ethanpoole wrote: post #22

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

At the University of Minnesota, those with degrees from the university can audit courses at a greatly reduced rate. I'm not sure whether this applies to online courses, but it's very likely that it does. During my undergraduate education there, I encountered many such post-degree students; they were quite a joy to have in class.

That's awesome. Question: Could those post-degree auditors get any credit for those classes? Or was it simply for the content?

Re: College for Grownups

#25

Post by acomjean » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:24 PM UTC

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

I think if people are going to questions "adult education" they might question how you got 2 undergrad degrees.

Some universities have a "Graduate Certificate" program where you can take graduate classes. They can be hard to find on websites. They seem to have worked well for a couple of my friends who took them to help them change career directions.

I started taking graduate CS classes for a certificate at Pace (my undergrad was in civil engineering), which ended up being helpful completing a Masters Program at Northeastern.

for example: http://www.pace.edu/seidenberg/seidenberg-programs/graduate-...

Re: College for Grownups

#26

Post by Domenic_S » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:26 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #18

rdtsc wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'club-med'ing their dorms and such, No kidding. My university in the early 2000's started jacking up tuition every year by crazy amounts. And at the same time started building boutique cafes, little gazebos, parks, a new sports center with a large inside heated pool and a lazy river snaking its away around its perimeter. All at the same time as some colleges didn't have enough money for to print tests to professors…

So you were a jerk to a volunteer or student calling you to ask for a donation. Kudos. In all seriousness, I think most college administrators take their job seriously, and on the whole are not going to raise tuition $10k/year so they can add a gazebo or a river to campus. I think it's just an unintended consequence of not being forced to react to market stimulus. In a free market, a college that raised its tuition h…

What are you talking about? That free market is why colleges "Club-Med" their facilities. It's what the high schoolers (and importantly, their parents) see when they're touring the school, deciding who to sign a decade of future earnings to.

Re: College for Grownups

#27

Post by cSoze » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:26 PM UTC

aruss wrote: post #21

What this article, and many commentators in this thread, are forgetting is that the college/university system is not designed primarily for education. The reason why the college system is tailored toward young adults is because we as a culture have decided that college is the place for young adults to "find themselves." College is often the first time young adults begin living on their own; putting them in a structur…

We're arguing exactly the design that you seem to be espousing. Taking into account cost, immaturity due to biological constraints at age 18-22 and rampant party culture, college is a particularily bad place to "find yourself". Young adults should be exposed to a wide diversity in age and demographics, not locked into a small area with a largely homogeneous group of individuals to "grow up". All of this was touched upon in the article. In my opinion, the American "college experience" is in dire need of reconsideration.

Re: College for Grownups

#28

Post by Domenic_S » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #13

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental flaw in your comment is the assumption that education is an investment that compounds in value. That's not the case for a large percentage of the young people who go to college today. Many will exit with weak earnings prospects and crippling debt that will compound.

Weak earnings prospects? Unemployment among people with a bachelors degree was under 4% last year. It was over 7% for people without one. http://www.businessinsider.com/college-vs-no-college-unemplo... Edit: Obama's pay-as-you-earn program puts an upper limit on how harsh the debt load can get.

Puts an upper limit on how harsh the debt load can get... on a month-to-month basis. If you're deciding affordability based on monthly obligation instead of total cost, you're doing it wrong.

Re: College for Grownups

#29

Post by cSoze » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:33 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #6

I dislike the condescending attitude of the author towards the young adults (referred to in the article as "children") attending college. The author claims that leaving home to live at college poses a "serious psychological risk". Are we talking about 18-year-olds or 5-year-olds? Are we afraid that these more-or-less fully fledged citizens, whom we allow to drive, smoke, enlist, vote, marry, and have children, are go…

Fully fledged citizen and adult are two concepts that deserve a distinction: http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadult/brain.html

Most 18 year olds are nowhere near mature enough to take college education as seriously as it deserves to be taken.

Re: College for Grownups

#30

Post by Domenic_S » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 9:35 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #4

doctorpangloss wrote: post #2

"First to market" applies as much to education as to business. The payoffs for finishing education sooner rather than later are enormous. A student may benefit from being more mature if they delay college or graduation. But it's unlikely that benefit exceeds the compounding value of finishing the same amount of school two years earlier. In other words, I strongly disagree with the premise that teenagers should delay…

But it's unlikely that benefit exceeds the compounding value of finishing the same amount of school two years earlier. Best I can tell, all that compounding value gets you one thing: more money in retirement. Therein lies my objection; letting your retirement dictate your first 65 years of life seems like folly.

It makes perfect sense to me. Choose the retirement you want based on the early life you want. IOW, choose your desired outcome based on the type of effort you want to put in up front.

Your retirement only "dictates" inasmuch as you've decided that your retirement should be one way or the other.