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College for Grownups

nytimes.com

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Re: College for Grownups

#11

Post by happyscrappy »

sliverstorm wrote: post #4
doctorpangloss wrote: post #2

"First to market" applies as much to education as to business. The payoffs for finishing education sooner rather than later are enormous. A student may benefit from being more mature if they delay college or graduation. But it's unlikely that benefit exceeds the compounding value of finishing the same amount of school two years earlier. In other words, I strongly disagree with the premise that teenagers should delay…

But it's unlikely that benefit exceeds the compounding value of finishing the same amount of school two years earlier. Best I can tell, all that compounding value gets you one thing: more money in retirement. Therein lies my objection; letting your retirement dictate your first 65 years of life seems like folly.

To quote Thoreau:

"This spending of the best part of one's life earning money in order to enjoy a questionable liberty during the least valuable part of it reminds me of the Englishman who went to India to make a fortune first, in order that he might return to England and live the life of a poet. He should have gone up garret at once."

Re: College for Grownups

#12

Post by nlh »

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world.

Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's less because of the adult part but more because of the payola part -- anyone can sign up for HES classes provided they pay.

What I think is potentially interesting, and frankly am surprised isn't offered yet (or at least not widely), is the idea of continuing one's education into adulthood through the same university.

My personal motivation: When I was 19 and a sophomore picking a major, I chose what interested me at the time - business & psychology. I loved what I learned and am grateful for my college education.

But here I am 18 years later and my brain and desires have changed. I'm rabidly excited about programming and CS topics, and have done a pretty decent job of teaching myself through various online resources over the past few years.

My alma mater should capitalize on this -- they should offer a "supplemental degree" program where I can give them money, take classes (remotely or on campus), do the work, take the tests, and get a CS major supplement to my previous undergrad degree. It would maintain the full authority of the university and be a full bachelor's degree, just completed almost 2 decades after the first bit :)

I can't imagine I'm alone in wanting this sort of thing...

Re: College for Grownups

#13

Post by sp332 »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #8
doctorpangloss wrote: post #2

"First to market" applies as much to education as to business. The payoffs for finishing education sooner rather than later are enormous. A student may benefit from being more mature if they delay college or graduation. But it's unlikely that benefit exceeds the compounding value of finishing the same amount of school two years earlier. In other words, I strongly disagree with the premise that teenagers should delay…

The fundamental flaw in your comment is the assumption that education is an investment that compounds in value. That's not the case for a large percentage of the young people who go to college today. Many will exit with weak earnings prospects and crippling debt that will compound.

Weak earnings prospects? Unemployment among people with a bachelors degree was under 4% last year. It was over 7% for people without one. http://www.businessinsider.com/college-vs-no-college-unemplo...

Edit: Obama's pay-as-you-earn program puts an upper limit on how harsh the debt load can get.

Re: College for Grownups

#14

Post by sillysaurus3 »

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's less because of the adult part but more because of the payola part -- anyone can sign up for HES classes provided they pay.

So it's like the regular Harvard admissions process, then.

EDIT: Just a little joke. But I'm not sure there's much of a difference between someone attending an expensive "prep school or outstanding high school" and someone paying a lot of money to enter a top-tier university. Attending such schools isn't a guarantee of admission, but being from a rich background boosts your chances by unreasonable margins. http://posttrib.chicagotribune.com/news/24598924-418/high-sc...

There are clear advantages to attending a top–tiered high school, as can be seen from college admissions data. The Harvard Crimson recently reported that in Harvard’s Class of 2017, six per cent of admitted students came from only 10 high schools. Eleven percent of high schools with students admitted to Harvard sent 36 percent of students, while 74 percent of schools sent only one student. Clearly where you went to high school plays a major role in whether or not you are admitted to Harvard.

Re: College for Grownups

#15

Post by rdtsc »

peapicker wrote: post #7

College was originally for people who acted like grownups -- at 18 years old -- because those who went 100(+) years ago were expected to take it seriously. Unfortunately, as time has gone on, at least in the US, colleges are spending more and more money on 'club-med'ing their dorms and such, giving the wrong impression of why you are on a campus to begin with -- and colleges are somewhat complicit in not caring nowad…

> 'club-med'ing their dorms and such,

No kidding. My university in the early 2000's started jacking up tuition every year by crazy amounts. And at the same time started building boutique cafes, little gazebos, parks, a new sports center with a large inside heated pool and a lazy river snaking its away around its perimeter. All at the same time as some colleges didn't have enough money for to print tests to professors would print them double sides, with a smaller font.

And then they had the nerve to call me asking for money after I graduated. After talking to me once, I made sure they won't call me again. And they haven't.

Re: College for Grownups

#16

Post by Spoom »

Teenagers and young adults are coveted by universities because they are old enough for their parents to let them do their own thing, but young enough that they are OK with taking on tens of thousands of dollars of debt for a questionable outcome.

Re: College for Grownups

#17

Post by john_b »

peapicker wrote: post #7

College was originally for people who acted like grownups -- at 18 years old -- because those who went 100(+) years ago were expected to take it seriously. Unfortunately, as time has gone on, at least in the US, colleges are spending more and more money on 'club-med'ing their dorms and such, giving the wrong impression of why you are on a campus to begin with -- and colleges are somewhat complicit in not caring nowad…

This is a predictable response to the nature of the product (education), the nature of the market (mostly clueless teenagers), and the uncertainty within that market of the eventual value of the product (chances of getting a job, how much it will pay, what-am-I-going-to-do-with-my-life, etc).

Colleges know that the target market of teenagers cannot come to a reasonable and calculated evaluation of the market value of the degree they are selling, so they bundle the product with anything and everything that makes prospective students and their parents feel more comfortable. Most Americans want their children to go to college, and most American teenagers have a vague understanding that it's something they should do, but there are too many unknowns for the target demographic to have any confidence in their investment, so those universities which succeed in alleviating the most fears and doubts have a competitive advantage.

This dynamic is a historical anomaly. Education has historically been trade-based, and later, a luxury of the rich who could afford to study less practical (but still important) matters. The former had a very predictable ROI that could be evaluated reasonably, and the market for the latter type of education wasn't typically concerned too much with the financial ROI of their investment, but with other types of value derived from it.

This is the fundamental problem of industrialized education, both state-controlled and private. A complete return to a trade-based system of education is impractical for many reasons, though it may help greatly in some smaller schools and regions, typically those with a dominant and stable large employer or two. On the other hand, most universities would collapse if education once again became the luxury of the elite.

MOOCs are not the answer either, at least not until the certifications they provide are widely accepted as predictable indicators of a good employee (and presently they are not). They may be a very attractive option for "continuing education" types of learning that the article references, however.

Re: College for Grownups

#18

Post by pc86 »

rdtsc wrote: post #15
peapicker wrote: post #7

College was originally for people who acted like grownups -- at 18 years old -- because those who went 100(+) years ago were expected to take it seriously. Unfortunately, as time has gone on, at least in the US, colleges are spending more and more money on 'club-med'ing their dorms and such, giving the wrong impression of why you are on a campus to begin with -- and colleges are somewhat complicit in not caring nowad…

> 'club-med'ing their dorms and such, No kidding. My university in the early 2000's started jacking up tuition every year by crazy amounts. And at the same time started building boutique cafes, little gazebos, parks, a new sports center with a large inside heated pool and a lazy river snaking its away around its perimeter. All at the same time as some colleges didn't have enough money for to print tests to professors…

So you were a jerk to a volunteer or student calling you to ask for a donation. Kudos.

In all seriousness, I think most college administrators take their job seriously, and on the whole are not going to raise tuition $10k/year so they can add a gazebo or a river to campus. I think it's just an unintended consequence of not being forced to react to market stimulus. In a free market, a college that raised its tuition had better be able to provide more value and/or subsist on fewer students. Unfortunately with the easy availability of loans and grants, all a higher tuition means is more cash in the college's coffers and a more expensive promissory note for a 17-year-old who doesn't understand it.

Re: College for Grownups

#19

Post by ilamont »

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's less because of the adult part but more because of the payola part -- anyone can sign up for HES classes provided they pay.

The eye-rolls also occur because of a large number of students and graduates who try to pass themselves off as students/alumni of Harvard College, GSAS, or the Business School.

It's unfortunate, because the high-profile impostors and resume exaggerations detract from the fact that it takes a lot of work to be accepted to a degree program and complete the requirements to graduate. In addition, there are some high-quality offerings in certain fields -- for instance, the post-bacc for students interested in going to medical school, as well as the on-campus classes taught by Harvard faculty.

Re: College for Grownups

#20

Post by mbrundle »

nlh wrote: post #12

"Adult Education" has this nagging stigma associated with it (though, thankfully, that's changing due to MOOCs and such). But still -- even when the major universities offer it, it's seen with a skewed tilt by much of the rest of the world. Ask anyone who graduated from Harvard (undergrad), HBS, HLS, etc. about the Harvard Extension School and you'll get the eye-roll I'm talking about. I think in cases like this it's…

No you're not. My background is biochemistry (UK degree), biomedical image processing (UK PhD) and web development (self-taught). After a decade of academic research in medical imaging, I'm now moving more towards pure tech. I'd love to go back to uni, say full time for 6-12 months, either in the US or UK, and rigorously study the fundamentals of Computer Science, however I haven't found a mechanism that really works for me.

An additional undergrad degree is too long and slow - I know I can study MUCH more efficiently than I could when I was 18, and I also want to be very focused on CS, so most of a US undergrad course would be a waste of time to me. On the other hand, a 1 year Masters is too advanced, since I don't have a firm grasp of the basics.

Online courses are definitely filling the gap but I feel like I learn faster with human interaction and mentoring. Bootcamps are okay to an extent (I'm currently doing The Firehose Project to learn some industry web dev practices, and they provide great mentoring and group projects), but they only advance your skills so far, and probably not up to the level I expect you'd be at after completing the first year of CS. It'd be great to see some different options out there which provide the rigour and cater to a more mature audience.

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