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The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

nytimes.com

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Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#171

Post by geebee »

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #8

>Some countries have developed policies that encourage older people to leave the labor force, so they do not “crowd out” younger workers Classic lump of labor fallacy.

You've alerted us to the existence of a fallacy, but you make no effort to explain what the fallacy is or how the argument you are refuting has committed this fallacy.

You did this in a previous discussion with me as well

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8691296

Of course, you are absolutely free to do this if you wish. But I did take the time to explain why I felt you had misdiagnosed the situation, and explained how the position I held was not undermined by the lump of labor fallacy.

Just my own opinion, but if you're going to cite this fallacy, I do think you should be explain how you feel it relates to the current discussion and be prepared to engage in a debate about whether it is relevant.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#172

Post by jameshart »

zaroth wrote: post #168
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

The silent yet steady substitution of unemployment benefits with federal disability insurance is well covered in an episode of This American Life [1]. We, as a country, have a shoddy system for re-training low-skills workers facing technological obsolescence. We have also set up a system under which unemployment benefits are largely a state liability. Disability, on the other hand, is federally funded. The intersecti…

And it's not just disability benefits. When you stop and really analyze it; Medicaid and health insurance credits, SSI, food stamps, EITC, FICA, progressive income tax rates, refundable tax credits, phased-out tax deductions, even things like housing and energy assistance, etc. There's easily $60,000 of services, utilities, fees, and taxes that you pay when earning $100k, that you get for free or don't have to pay if…

That actually sounds like you might be able to back that up - would be interesting to see the actual stats. But I think you're missing a certain qualitative difference though - the services the 100K-income household is getting for their 60k are significantly better than the services the 0-income household is being given. Obviously they're probably spending money on better food than the food stamps would cover, they're likely living in better conditions in a better neighborhood, and their health insurance probably gives them more choices than they would have on medicaid.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#173

Post by MCRed »

josephschmoe wrote: post #154
MCRed wrote: post #2

Look ma, that's me! Free of a soul crushing corporate job, back to doing a "startup", I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I have some money coming from side projects, several opportunities to grow that, and several opportunities for new side projects. And quite a long personal runway before I have to…

Actually, I think this is less common now than it was 20 years ago.

Well, 30 years ago there was no global internet full of knowledge and allowing collaboration-- I had to go to the college library.

There was also no global internet allowing for an instant global market to be serviced from the middle of nowhere. If you started a business in podunk, your market was the podunk area. (For the most part, there was mail order and stuff, but that still had a higher barrier to entry than the internet does now.)

So I think things have gotten easier and a lot more people are doing it.

I'm interested in hearing why you think the opposite-- I bet you're observing a different trend than I am focusing on. (eg both trends can be true)

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#174

Post by MCRed »

LargeCompanies wrote: post #26
MCRed wrote: post #2

Look ma, that's me! Free of a soul crushing corporate job, back to doing a "startup", I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I have some money coming from side projects, several opportunities to grow that, and several opportunities for new side projects. And quite a long personal runway before I have to…

I've lived with a parent (it's a big house they'd alone otherwise here) for I guess too many years then I've should. Also I'm old and my g/f who is similar age of five years also lives with a parent. Though she is getting antsy and wants kids and she only has a few years left. I want a family too but have been holding off for that big moment when my team and I start generating money and or sell our work. Ugh will tha…

I'm in my 40s and have been working for and with startups since my early 20s.

I'd rather scrape by doing what I love than make bank and hating my life.

Of course, making bank and loving it would be the ideal. But its not like I think the odds are huge.

One thing I am doing is building up my side businesses. Get enough side income going to live on and you can work for a startup at low risk.

Not the case when you have a family, of course.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#175

Post by tluyben2 »

MCRed wrote: post #165
tluyben2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never had 'a job' and had startups (and later mature companies) since I was 15 (I am 40 now). I am not sure what age you are, but you need to know this thing for sure if you are past, I think, around 30 as running a life like this can be very painful. There simply is a tiny chance of 'big success' while most just live in almost poverty the first 20-30 years of doing this. That's also why I think you are probab…

I'm older than you. Have done this before, spent 6 years "unemployed" traveling the world before I "got a job" that turned out to be a terrible decision. Of course you don't have control over your destiny to the point of just wishing you had a million bucks... but I also now don't have a psychotic boss whose only experience has been in the military micromanaging software development and doing everything he can to "co…

Indeed that's a reason I do it as well and I applaud all for going that route ; I'm just saying that if you do it for that reason you might turn out in a smaller prison than actually having a boss. But if you are not greedy, don't care about materialistic things too much, know how to save money for a rainy day and have a family that supports that way of living, I wouldn't want it any other way.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#176

Post by MCRed »

gutnor wrote: post #61
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! How are people who don't have a meaningful source of income and who are dependent on their parents for shelter any more in control of their destinies than corporate worker bees?

It is not only that - even when you run your own company you can and often are effectively dependent on your clients/market ( especially that big client making 80% of your revenue ), or the need of your dependents ( you still need to pay your mortgage ) . That's a common complain here on HN of founder "selling out", "losing the original spirit", ... There is a cultural bias for entrepreneur, especially in the US (tha…

Here's the difference: When the market says something, I can react to it and improve immediately. For me the market is large and variety, it's not like a few people make up %80 of the income.

Working for a corporation, in the most recent case, meant dealing with people who were so incompetent that they did everything I can think of to interfere with us reacting to the market.

You know the saying about how people with nothing to do create work for others? Well, when you're a software team and the boss has zero software skills, or understanding, or care, you end up in a lot of pointless meetings.

Seriously, I would get interrupted 200 times in a day. (I counted once).

So, more risk, less secure money, but avoiding harassment, verbal abuse, manipulation, gas lighting, and 200 interruptions a day is a huge positive trade off.

For me at least.

Plus I get to see my parents for a few months while I pick out the next place I'm going to live.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#177

Post by Zigurd »

lpsz wrote: post #134
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

The silent yet steady substitution of unemployment benefits with federal disability insurance is well covered in an episode of This American Life [1]. We, as a country, have a shoddy system for re-training low-skills workers facing technological obsolescence. We have also set up a system under which unemployment benefits are largely a state liability. Disability, on the other hand, is federally funded. The intersecti…

I'm happy if my tax money can help someone in need. However, I'm unhappy if it leads to creation of permanent poverty traps. Have any countries (perhaps in Europe or elsewhere) successfully implemented support systems that are fair both to the needy and to the taxpayers?

I suspect that angst about "permanent poverty traps" is something we're going to have to get over.

For now, we're talking about unskilled and low-skilled jobs going away permanently, and there is an element of moral panic about uneducated, supposedly low-value-producing people getting leisure and government support.

Just wait until it happens to a middle-class or upper-middle-class group. THEN is will be all kinds of innovative to offer lifelong government assistance in the form of mincome or other such program.

And if you are worried about government spending and efficiency, wouldn't you rather see the TSA payroll supporting twice or three times as many people in a mincome program? It's better to be honest about a lack of productive jobs.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#178

Post by MCRed »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #94
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! How are people who don't have a meaningful source of income and who are dependent on their parents for shelter any more in control of their destinies than corporate worker bees?

Not all corporate jobs are soulless, mind crushing Orwellian nightmares, and nothing prevents you from looking for a fulfilling job if you are unhappy with your present one, especially in our field.

True, and I did spend some time looking. It's kinda sad, though, how our field seems to have devolved in the past 15 years. Startups today are much more corporate, more likely to be run by biz guys without appreciation for software, etc.

Here's a good litmus test: If they have an open floor plan they clearly don't care about developers.

If they BRAG about having an open floor plan-- and so many of them do-- they are terrible. Run away.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#179

Post by mrec »

rtpg wrote: post #14
marcell wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is great that you are able to do this, but not that your situation is not the one described in the article. The article discusses men who only qualify for low/no skill jobs paying $10-15/hr. That is markedly different from a tech startup cofounder who could get a software engineering job paying $100k+ with benefits.

yeah, a big problem with the whole "Don't need BigCo's job cuz I'm running a SV startup!" narrative is that it's really only accessible for people who already belonged to pretty privileged classes (exceptions exist, obviously.) A portion of the population does not get opportunities to develop these skills and were once allowed low-skilled jobs that paid "decently" but have now found themselves squeezed due to inflati…

"A portion of the population does not get opportunities to develop these skills and were once allowed low-skilled jobs that paid "decently" but have now found themselves squeezed"

Slate Star Codex had a great post a while back that touched on this:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/

Key pull quote: "Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that could have supported him and replacing it with things that required skills he didn’t have."

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#180

Post by Nicholas_C »

jokoon wrote: post #92

I live in france, am 29, I worked 2 months in my life. "what they do instead" Trying to go back to school, I learned programming for 2 years in some technician school program, did not get the degree, after that I expanded my programming skills by myself, but it has been pretty bleak. I'm quite ashamed of myself. I have many ideas of projects, but they really seems to be out of my reach in terms of skill, experience,…

I'm sorry for your troubles. I do have a question: How do you pay for anything? Have you been on govt. benefits this whole time?
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