US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program • Hacker News Board

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#561

Post by lotsofmangos » Thu, Dec 11, 2014, 6:22 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #557

lotsofmangos wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least 39 detainees I don't see anything showing there were others outside the 39 Rather than give my honest opinion here, which would no doubt end up in a kindly word by dang, may I just ask you to run a basic boolean check over your posts before hitting 'reply'. edit - the part you have such difficulty locating is from the exact same section you quoted, just a little further on, page 104.

Your snark aside, "at least 39" doesn't indicate there are more than 39. Also, the bit you quoted from page 104 is in reference to a list of the 17 tortured without authorization. So it also doesn't indicate there were more than 39 total

It starts with: This list does not include examples in which CIA inten-ogators were authorized to use the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, but then implemented the techniques in a manner that diverged from the authorization.

How can it be referring to the 17 where no authorization was sought, when it specifically states it is talking about authorized interrogations?

And in common meaning, if you say 'at least 39', you are giving a low-end estimate, not a known total.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#562

Post by leroy_masochist » Thu, Dec 11, 2014, 6:43 PM UTC

ObviousScience wrote: post #481

rayiner wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligent people who support the government actions aren't afraid of specific terrorist acts. They're afraid of what a failure to stop terrorist movements could lead to. I imagine there were a lot of people sitting in the cafes of Rome who said: "I can't believe you think those germanic barbarians could possibly ever pose a threat to us!" And of course, it doesn't help that the folks who are captured are mostly…

Terrorist groups are nothing like the barbarians that eventually brought down Rome, and I think you know it. You've spent this entire thread making poor excuses for completely irrational behaviors and trying to justifying sickening, ineffective actions on the part of US personnel. Just stop.

> Terrorist groups are nothing like the barbarians that eventually brought down Rome, and I think you know it.

I beg to differ.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2868419/Thrown-roof-...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#563

Post by waterlesscloud » Thu, Dec 11, 2014, 6:50 PM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #561

waterlesscloud wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your snark aside, "at least 39" doesn't indicate there are more than 39. Also, the bit you quoted from page 104 is in reference to a list of the 17 tortured without authorization. So it also doesn't indicate there were more than 39 total

It starts with: This list does not include examples in which CIA inten-ogators were authorized to use the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, but then implemented the techniques in a manner that diverged from the authorization. How can it be referring to the 17 where no authorization was sought, when it specifically states it is talking about authorized interrogations? And in common meaning, if you say 'at least…

The list starts on page 101 and is prefaced by this:

"The 17 detainees who were subjected to techniques without the approval of CIA Headquarters were: (...)", and then it lists them by name.

Then there's the part you're quoting, which is quite clearly stating that the list of 17 isn't counting cases where EIT was authorized, but the techniques were not implemented as authorized. This isn't surprising since the list of 17 is of people who weren't authorized for EIT at all.

If they were authorized, they're not listed as being unauthorized, even if the techniques used went beyond the authorization.

It's really very simple if you read the document. There's no question that section you quoted is referring to the list of 17.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#564

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:02 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #524

Arnor wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how shall we proceed?

The first step is telling your representative(s) that you think torture is bad. They genuinely don't know if you approve of it or not, and they've got the CIA and associated lobby telling them how necessary it is and that if they try to stop it, they're hurting america and in fact they're basically terrorists themselves. Start by phoning your representative's office. Today. Tomorrow. The day after that. Every day, as…

Demand also that everybody who has been involved in this in any way be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

And not even just the US law. I'm sure what the Nazis did was totally legal by their own laws, and yet they were still punished. Some crimes supercede local laws.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#565

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:04 PM UTC

wfn wrote: post #544

rhizome wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.

..but on the other hand, the US is not part of the ICC (it hasn't signed the 1998 Rome Statute of the ICC), and it also has this jolly federal law in place (2002): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the…

You don't have to be signatory to the ICC for torture to be illegal. The ICC is fairly recent. We didn't need the ICC at Nuremberg. We don't need it now. It can be prosecuted within the US justice system, or a new tibunal can be created for it.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#566

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:07 PM UTC

patronagezero wrote: post #540

EliRivers wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first step is telling your representative(s) that you think torture is bad. They genuinely don't know if you approve of it or not, and they've got the CIA and associated lobby telling them how necessary it is and that if they try to stop it, they're hurting america and in fact they're basically terrorists themselves. Start by phoning your representative's office. Today. Tomorrow. The day after that. Every day, as…

Politics will not get us out of this mess, but it sure is an easy ride if that's the limitations of your efforts.

What other option is there? Revolution? If you can't get enough people together to vote the current crooks out of office, you certainly have no hope of staging a revolution.

In the end, these people need to be prosecuted in order to lock them up. That means the DoJ needs to do its job, but in the corrupt system of the US, it also means that Congress needs to understand the gravity of the situation.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#567

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:10 PM UTC

programmarchy wrote: post #518

patronagezero wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

The root of the problem is that the state is a monopoly on violence. What is a "citizen" supposed to do? Vote for the red master or the blue master next time? It makes no difference. The best thing a "citizen" can do is recognize the state is foundationally unethical and has no legitimate political authority and never did. [1] Once we leave behind the mysticism of state authority, perhaps we can find better ways to o…

How is that going to help you? Going rogue on your own is not going to get these people in prison, or prevent that it will happen again.

You need people on your side. You need a majority of Americans on your side. And once you've got that, you can vote the politicians out of office, elect some better ones, and finally see justice done. And maybe before that, you can use the threat of this happening to get the current crop of politicians to finally care about justice.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#568

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:13 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #388

patronagezero wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

While I disagree in particular (because it is believed the agents of the US using this torture practices acted in secret) there is an overarching logic that is sound: to the degree a society is democratic is the same degree its citizens are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government officials.

The only way to avoid being responsible for this, is to take the responsibility you have: to condemn this, and demand justice. Pay reparations to the victims of these sadists (preferably out of the pockets of the culprits, but out of the US treasury if necessary), and put the culprits behind bars.

Anyone not doing that, is guilty of condoning this crime, and ensuring that it can and will happen again in the future.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#569

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:21 PM UTC

__d wrote: post #348

kilroy123 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My little sister just got into with me on facebook about how it is perfectly ok to torture our enemies. That's just the last straw for me. I would never have someone in my life, family or not, who would think raping people is acceptable. This is even worse. Even our enemies shouldn't be raped/tortured.

But killing them is ok?

These torture victims weren't even allowed to kill themselves. At least one tried to gnaw through his own veins just to end it all. Yes, this kind of torture is worse than murder. To the victim, but also for the perpetrator, because it's done in cold blood for a prolonged time. You have to have a truly sick mind to be able to do this and continue doing this. The people doing this do not belong out on the street, and they certainly should not be holding any kind of authority.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#570

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 2:28 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #558

willscott wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. For me, that's hope that we're still in a position to learn from our wrongs, and that the checks-and-balances are still somewhat in-tact.

> The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. Pft. You're not getting off that easy. The "saving grace" for Germany was going to international trial for the crimes committed, something the US actively refuses to do, AND hanging their heads in collective national shame for the atrocities they allowed happen in their name, scared shitless what a country is capable of when not kep…

This. Admitting you did wrong is not enough; you're not really sorry if you don't make sure it can never happen again, if you don't try to make whatever repairs can be made, if you don't make sure the culprits end up in prison.

I hope the US is truly sorry about this, but they will have to show how sorry they are. Words are not enough.

Germany, has gone out of its way to punish the guilty, and to change their national culture, and imprint their new culture with the taboos necessary to ensure those atrocities can never happen again. No country in the history of the world has ever been so sorry as Germany, and their reaction to the shameful things they did deserves admiration and respect.

If the US wants to deserve similar admiration and respect, they have to show it. They have to prove it, by putting all these people behind bars at the very least.