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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

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Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#371

Post by lotsofmangos »

rayiner wrote: post #316
anigbrowl wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being disingenuous here. It's like the difference between a police officer shooting an armed criminal on the street (which may be a matter of necessity, though recent examples highlight just how problematic such a standard can be) and beating them up in jail when they're already in a custodial situation and thus present no threat to the public. It's true that is the scale of awful behavior, the CIA's program w…

> You're being disingenuous here. It's like the difference between a police officer shooting an armed criminal on the street (which may be a matter of necessity, though recent examples highlight just how problematic such a standard can be) and beating them up in jail when they're already in a custodial situation and thus present no threat to the public. In war, we justify things a lot more morally ambiguous than a po…

Is waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed worse than blowing up some sap who just showed up to work on the wrong day?

Yes. Waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is viewed by the vast majority to be morally far much worse than bombing a munitions factory. That is why doing it costs the tremendous political capital.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#372

Post by anigbrowl »

rayiner wrote: post #316
anigbrowl wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being disingenuous here. It's like the difference between a police officer shooting an armed criminal on the street (which may be a matter of necessity, though recent examples highlight just how problematic such a standard can be) and beating them up in jail when they're already in a custodial situation and thus present no threat to the public. It's true that is the scale of awful behavior, the CIA's program w…

> You're being disingenuous here. It's like the difference between a police officer shooting an armed criminal on the street (which may be a matter of necessity, though recent examples highlight just how problematic such a standard can be) and beating them up in jail when they're already in a custodial situation and thus present no threat to the public. In war, we justify things a lot more morally ambiguous than a po…

That's true, and in many cases people who may be contributing to a country's war effort (thus making themselves legitimate targets) are there involuntarily as a result of having been drafted or otherwise pressed into service. Arguably the worst aspect of industrialized war is the inexorable military logic of attacking the enemy's productive rather than military capacity, as a natural extension of cutting an army's lines of supply.

I agree that trying to establish bright-line rules often seems a futile exercise because it's so easy to come up with ethical inconsistencies. I do have a theory about the moral calculus of conflict but it's inchoate and this comment isn't really the place for it. To sketch the outline, though, the severity of a given outcome in a conflict can be mitigated by the degree of risk involved in bringing it about; so while the imposition involved in sleep deprivation or keeping someone cold is mild compared to someone being horribly maimed by a piece of shrapnel, it's the massive prior asymmetry between captor and prisoner that's problematic in the case of torture. Of course, you could argue that this asymmetry is also strong where only one side in a conflict has an air force or where one side is using remote-controlled military assets like drones, whose 'pilots' experience no physical risks whatsoever. This is going to become a huge problem within a few short years with robotic infantry assets - as soon as they're 'good enough' to deploy effectively there will be huge pressure to do so, even if they are just slightly extending forward positions over a short distance.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#373

Post by patronagezero »

Loughla wrote: post #278
icpmacdo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST the third point, there is a second half to it that shows what he tried to do to him self after being put through that > Additional sessions of rectal feeding and hydration followed. In addition to his hunger strikes, Majid Klian engaged in acts of self-harm that included attempting to cut his wrist on two occasions, an attempt to chew into his arm at the inner elbow, an attempt to cut a vein in t…

This man literally tried to chew through his own body, to bleed out, to avoid having his food forcefully shoved up his ass, for no reason whatsoever. He further attempted to kill himself on several occasions to avoid this as well. That is the cold truth of that statement. This is fucking disgusting, and someone needs to be held accountable.

> and someone needs to be held accountable.

The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#374

Post by dang »

mikeash wrote: post #356
rayiner wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwing water on someone and leaving them in a 59-degree room is worse than shooting them dead? Keeping someone awake until they hallucinate is worse than shooting them dead? Really? I can imagine torture that's worse than death. I don't think any of the things revealed in the article qualify. Which is precisely what I'm getting at. If you're not a pacifist and you think it's okay to kill people in war, I think you…

Why do you continually focus on the cold room and ignore all the other kinds of torture in this report? It's unconvincing and reflects poorly on your argument.

> Are you deliberately trying to sound like an idiot?

I understand the frustration, but please do not violate the site guidelines like this.

The comment would be appropriate and stronger with just the first question.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#375

Post by elwin »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #189
rdtsc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, and we might even be in worse position if action is not taken. If there is lack of outrage, it will send a message up the chain that "this is not that bad, nobody really minded this much, let's use harsher techniques next time".

So here's an ethical question- If the report leads to no action, where is the good in releasing it? Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. If there's no good coming from the report, was it worth placing those people in danger?

Making the information public reduces the excusability of the people responsible. It may lead to no action, but that inaction will now be complicity.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#376

Post by sabfdkjwab »

junto wrote: post #255

let's assume a group like Occupy started to gain enough traction that they became a serious threat to the status quo. that is to say, that the current power base started to shift to a form of politics outside the current two party flip flop system the USA has today. How long do you think it would be before those 'subversive' groups, even as non-violent, would start to receive the same treatment? There are few of us p…

Actually, there were already leaked plans from the FBI to assassinate Occupy members if the movement became too influential.

http://whowhatwhy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/FloridaFBIS...

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/25/why_did_fbi_monitor_oc...

I guess we can't let those plebeians have their way, now, can we?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#377

Post by mikeash »

harryh wrote: post #369
mikeash wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the Cold War, when the threat wasn't that someone might figure out a way to smuggle a small weapon into NYC, but that we'd have fifteen minutes' warning before NYC was subject to multiple megaton-class detonations, along with every other major city in the country? There isn't even any evidence that the threat of nuclear terrorism is credible. Nukes aren't something you pick up at the local Safeway on your wa…

What do you mean we weren't having debates like this then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

Planned and carried out in secrecy and universally decried afterwards. When it came to light, the President more or less wanted the CIA's head on a pike. Quite different from ongoing secret-but-not-secret torture with a ton of defenders in the public eye and two Presidents who either defend it or try their best to ignore it.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#378

Post by mikeash »

dang wrote: post #374
mikeash wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you continually focus on the cold room and ignore all the other kinds of torture in this report? It's unconvincing and reflects poorly on your argument.

> Are you deliberately trying to sound like an idiot? I understand the frustration, but please do not violate the site guidelines like this. The comment would be appropriate and stronger with just the first question.

Fair. Edited to attack the words rather than the person.

I imagine this thread is all sorts of "fun" for you right now....

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#379

Post by Loughla »

patronagezero wrote: post #373
Loughla wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This man literally tried to chew through his own body, to bleed out, to avoid having his food forcefully shoved up his ass, for no reason whatsoever. He further attempted to kill himself on several occasions to avoid this as well. That is the cold truth of that statement. This is fucking disgusting, and someone needs to be held accountable.

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

I don't understand, how can you blame the citizens for this, when they were ignorant, against their will, about this?

When the institution that is performing these acts out-and-out lies about the impact and severity, how can random citizens be held accountable? That honestly makes no sense to me.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#380

Post by simoncion »

spoonman1 wrote: post #46
phkahler wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? >>EDIT: also the fact that it's stamped "Unclassified" everywhere. If it was stamped as still classified and had been leaked, anyone with a clearance would risk losing it by reading the file. So a person with clearance can't read a leaked classified document? I'm confused, more explanation please ;-) This IS sounding vaguely familiar in some way, but I don't get it. EDIT: Thanks for all the replies. Also,…

In order to legally view a classified document you must possess two things: 1) the appropriate classification level (or above) and 2) a need to know

The only people who are restricted from reading classified documents are those who hold government security clearances. Folks who haven't bound themselves to that particular machine cannot be told what they can and cannot read.
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