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The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

nytimes.com

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Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#71

Post by [deleted] »

yen223 wrote: post #38
jsilva wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "privileged classes", not sure i understood your idea ?

For one thing, you need savings. If you absolutely need a paycheck this month to make it through to next month, you simply cannot afford the risks involved in doing the whole startup thing. Another thing, you need skills. But it's very difficult to get a decent education (formal or otherwise) if your family isn't able to support you during your formative learning years. It's not easy to learn programming if your fami…

[deleted]

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#72

Post by Malarkey73 »

ctdonath wrote: post #67

Where does minimum wage [objectively] fit in? If an employer can't pay someone what a job is worth, either the job doesn't get done or a machine is found to do it - leaving someone without the opportunity for a job. Yes, it may not be a "living wage", but no wage is even less desirable. I've started using Taco Bell's remote ordering app. The clerk, seeing how I'd ordered (not using his services), yesterday thanked me…

[Objectively] in countries where a minimum wage has been introduced at a higher rate than the US and is reviewed each year it has pushed up wages but had little effect on employment.

e.g. see for instance this discussion http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/02/labour-m...

Further I can't really stand the crocodile tears of business who want to employ workers at below living level wages. Their fake concern for worker is nauseating.

If workers are having to top up wages with food stamps and government aid then the business, management, and shareholders rather than the worker are effectively being subsidised by the taxpayer.

And if you let companies lower wages to compete then the bad employers drive out the good. Far better to make them compete on the product or service not how badly they are willing to treat people.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#73

Post by db48x »

hessenwolf wrote: post #32
brandonmenc wrote: post #3

> The places with the highest rates of male nonwork include parts of Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Kentucky, West Virginia, Arkansas and Michigan. The areas of high unemployment in Arizona and New Mexico overlap almost exactly with the Indian reservations. A problem deserving its own analysis.

Does that mean that more Indians are unemployed, or that the reservations were placed in the greatest economic crapholes that could be found?

The folks living in the reservations have not grown their economies. Economic growth isn't something that happens automatically; you have to go out and start new enterprises, invent new technologies, etc. Some cultures are simply incapable of this and will eventually die out; if you want an extreme example go read "Don't Sleep, There are Snakes" by Daniel Everett.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#74

Post by JumpCrisscross »

The silent yet steady substitution of unemployment benefits with federal disability insurance is well covered in an episode of This American Life [1]. We, as a country, have a shoddy system for re-training low-skills workers facing technological obsolescence. We have also set up a system under which unemployment benefits are largely a state liability. Disability, on the other hand, is federally funded. The intersection of these trends, as documented by This American Life, lands us in the curious situation of state governments encouraging their unemployed to seek disability benefits (thereby shifting their burden onto the federal budget).

In the short run, state unemployment and federal disability benefits have similar effects. Social stability is enhanced through buying off the poor. But long-term disability is not designed for the under-trained. Its means-testing paradigm discourages even the exploration of employment options which might jeopardise the applicant's disability status. Thus a one-way valve to dependency on the state's largesse.

[1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/t...

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#75

Post by arethuza »

rjsw wrote: post #52
XorNot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the education system is bad at picking winners. What's in demand when you're in highschool is not what's in demand by the time you're entering the workforce.

I remember finding that "Computer Programmer" wasn't listed as a possible job when we got careers advice as early teens.

My 15 year old son got recommended the following options by a career guidance system his school uses:

- Lawyer

- Town planner

- Royal Marine Officer

I'd love to know the "logic" that led from his interests/skills to that selection!

[NB Only one of these got the reaction "don't do that" from his mother and I].

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#76

Post by ska »

morganvachon wrote: post #70
yen223 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, you need savings. If you absolutely need a paycheck this month to make it through to next month, you simply cannot afford the risks involved in doing the whole startup thing. Another thing, you need skills. But it's very difficult to get a decent education (formal or otherwise) if your family isn't able to support you during your formative learning years. It's not easy to learn programming if your fami…

> Basically, if you want to do a startup, you had better not be poor or uneducated. Robert Herjavec would disagree with you, as would Sam Walton, Andrew Carnegie, Li Ka-shing, and dozens more who overcame poverty and a lack of education via hard work and common sense (and yes, a bit of luck in some cases) to become successful businessmen.

I wouldn't go so far as the post you're replying too (I think you can do a startup without all the advantages named, but your risk looks different).

However, I think you are falling into the trap of identifying outliers and then trying to reason about the general case from it - it's pretty hard to use that to say anything more that "it's possible for X to happen, because it happened here, and here."

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#77

Post by protomyth »

db48x wrote: post #73
hessenwolf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean that more Indians are unemployed, or that the reservations were placed in the greatest economic crapholes that could be found?

The folks living in the reservations have not grown their economies. Economic growth isn't something that happens automatically; you have to go out and start new enterprises, invent new technologies, etc. Some cultures are simply incapable of this and will eventually die out; if you want an extreme example go read "Don't Sleep, There are Snakes" by Daniel Everett.

Perhaps you should look at the conditions that were imposed on these areas. Horrible government education and health care, relocation of individuals resulting in horrific suicide rates, boarding schools that beat students for keeping their culture and language, US government mishandling resources to the point the Dept of Interior was required to cut their internet connection multiple times. Never mind the oil and uranium problems.

Its a culture problem, but not from the Native American side. The current generation suffered all these things and is trying to dig out of a hole. The next generation is better poised to grow as the culture is returning.

Also, I would love for you to go to the Seminoles and read them your comment. I expect they would have a words. I would imagine these stats also don't cover pow-wow circuit youth very well, but that would take research.

As a side note, this is the most ignorant and racist comment I have read on HN.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#78

Post by robotic »

mbrameld wrote: post #6

Why do they exclude men in the military from their numbers?

I like in Columbus, GA, which is right next to Fort Benning, one of the largest Army bases in USA. If these soldiers were included in the stats, then our numbers would look better.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#80

Post by hyperpape »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

The silent yet steady substitution of unemployment benefits with federal disability insurance is well covered in an episode of This American Life [1]. We, as a country, have a shoddy system for re-training low-skills workers facing technological obsolescence. We have also set up a system under which unemployment benefits are largely a state liability. Disability, on the other hand, is federally funded. The intersecti…

There is also an issue with disability benefits where they are structured with disincentives to work. The motivation to not pay disability to people who can work is understandable, but for people who can work some but whose disability hinders their ability to get a full-time job or one that's not highly paid, it's a disaster.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/07/aid...

This is a point that's not fundamentally liberal or conservative. Both sides should be interested in improving programs that have gratuitous barriers to work.

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