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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#121

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

rayiner wrote: post #61
ScottBurson wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grand juries don't seem to correct the most egregious errors in either direction. Consider the famous assertion that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. On the other hand, consider the recent non-indictment of Darren Wilson. How often do grand juries defy the prosecutor's wishes? I certainly agree that a check on prosecutorial discretion is badly needed. But the grand jury system doesn't seem…

Aggregated statistics on grand juries are hard to come by, but let's use a random county for example: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/special-reports/article396... . Grand juries in Tarrant County, Texas declined to indict 11% of felony cases. Floating around the internet, you can find numbers ranging from 3-4% in New York counties to 5% in Texas as a whole. The high rate of indictments, of course, doesn't prove th…

Not trying to be disagreeable, just want to add some info about Texas' crappy grand jury system. Texas' grand jury system is one of two IIRC that allow the use of the "pick-a-pal" system.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that high-profile indictments are often discussed and decided before the indictment is presented, outside the juror's room.

And finally, we're having a little crisis currently in Harris county over the threatening of a witness by a grand jury foreman who was also a retired police officer, serving on a grand jury that was deciding to indict a man for the murder of another police officer.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/daily-post/grand-jury-system-tex...

http://www.texastribune.org/2014/09/15/time-ditch-key-man-gr...

http://www.constitution.org/jury/gj/041113_chron_casey.htm

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#122

Post by res0nat0r »

Crito wrote: post #101
res0nat0r wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual title of this article is "America's Police on Trial" so I don't think this editorial is trying to apply itself to every area of US law. They qualify the above statement in the prior paragraph: "One reason why so many American police shoot first is that so many American civilians are armed."

Even with that qualification that is still crap logic. There are lots of guns in America, but the number of Americans who own guns are at all-time lows. The "number of guns in America" figure is deceptive because of all of the people who own dozens to hundreds of guns. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-o... Arresting somebody who owns one or two guns is really not inherently safer than arrest…

It isn't because gun ownership is up, it is stating that police shootings occur because of the mere fact that there are already more guns in the USA than any other first world country, thus police are more likely to encounter criminals with guns. We also have the highest gun homicide rate of any first world country. The two are directly related.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#123

Post by dllthomas »

Veratyr wrote: post #120
dllthomas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912 > "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007.

Wikipedia agrees, citing [1]. However, both only seems to speak to ammunition issued by the army, not to how much of it is purchased privately. If it is in fact uncommon for Swiss gun owners to own ammunition, then that still seems to make the "gun ownership rate" misleading as pertains to the discussion here.

[1] http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-b...

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#124

Post by jqm »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #118
jqm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Both parties are guilty of basic lack of civility (a point which I note). But one party is (in theory), a professional state agent, paid at least in part by the other. (Sounds like you didn't quite make it to the bottom of my post.....). I'm not quite catching your point... it seems to be that Brown was acting up so it was acceptable for Wilson to act as he did. And if that is your point I don't agree. At all…

I didn't say you could "blame" either one of them. I said that you are being inconsistent by only attributing total responsibility for escalating a situation that resulted in the confrontation to one party. The fact that Wilson was a professional and Brown wasn't doesn't change that fact, in fact not a single thing said I thought he shouldn't be punished. You are saying "Wilson didn't act within his responsibility."…

This article isn't about people walking in the street or the behavior of suspects. It's about the behavior of police officers. So are my comments.

"Total" responsibility? Where do I attribute that? Did you actually read my post? You reject my point that society would be better served if police officers behaved in a more civil manner?

I don't think this worth continuing.... Have a good evening.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#125

Post by res0nat0r »

Sir_Substance wrote: post #105

I would like to remind everyone that the US gun ownership rate is not the cause of US gun crime. A key assertion of this article is that guncrime is high because guns are common, and thus police have a somewhat justified reason to shoot first to defend themselves. I would like to remind everyone that ownership of a military assault rifle is mandatory for 2/3rds of all men between 20 and 34 in Switzerland, and the rif…

> US gun crime and police aggression is the result of unhealthy gun culture and an unhealthy attitude towards mental health, not ownership rates.

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on crazy people. What we do have a monopoly on is the most guns per capita of any first world country. If we didn't have the highest concentration of guns of any first world country, we also wouldn't have the highest gun homicide rate of any first world country.

This is the real issue.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#126

Post by dllthomas »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #53
callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

Do they not send you a letter or something when they suspend your licence? It seems strange that they would do it without you knowing. For the future: belt up before turning on the ignition. Seat belts save lives.

"Do they not send you a letter or something when they suspend your licence?"

Michigan claims they sent me a letter, but I never received one. I occasionally had trouble with my mail at that address, so I chalked it up to that, but they got a few thousand extra dollars out of me because of it so I've always been just a little skeptical.

Oh, and later, when I hadn't been in the state for years, and had a license issued in a different state, and my MI license was years expired, they decided to suspend my license again, and claim this time they sent the letter to an old address of mine. Thankfully this time I discovered it without being pulled over.

I've been calling periodically, just to check.

I'm not the OP, but I can vouch that it's totally possible to discover that your license is suspended on being pulled over.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#127

Post by callmeed »

rconti wrote: post #79
callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

Parking spot 2 blocks from the highway? After all, it was the CHP that gave you the ticket.... In my experience, CHP is the EASIEST law enforcement agency to live with. 12 years here and not so much as a traffic stop. It's paradise compared to anywhere else I've been.

Yeah, that's the other weird thing. He was camped out several blocks from the 101 on-ramp.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#128

Post by callmeed »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #59
callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

In other words, you're an asshole. It's a shame they gave you back your car at all.

Yes, thanks for distilling my comment down to what I was really trying to say. Your comment is as sharp as it is brave.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#129

Post by tptacek »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #116
tptacek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly does eliminating grand juries help with out-of-control law enforcement? Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused . Do they work in practice? No. But eliminating them concedes the problem to the prosecution entirely. You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.

>Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused. Do they work in practice? No. Grand Juries have an especially hard time finding anything wrong with police conduct and are routinely used to "legitimize" questionable police activity. I'm not ready to agree to eliminating them but it isn't hard to understand why someone might throw it out there as an idea.

Why? So we can do away with the pretense?

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#130

Post by callmeed »

refurb wrote: post #60
callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

So you don't like cops because you break the law and they go after you for it?

First, it's more the system, which cops are a part of, than just cops.

Second, it's not so much about me getting away with breaking the law. Seatbelt violation? Sure, I'll take it. But suspending my license because of a fix-it ticket (which was fixed immediately but not verified)? Forcing someone with a suspended license to somehow get to 4 different places? C'mon.

But here's the real issue IMO: what if I'm a lower-income person living paycheck to paycheck and don't have $800 available? (FYI the storage fees at the impound lot is $50/day). What if I'm a 1-car family? Is it ok if I lose my car or job all because of this?

Maybe my main complaint is that everything seems purposefully inefficient and backwards in order to extract more money and keep more people employed–regardless of the effect it has on people.

And, yeah, some laws should change. I thought HN of all places would understand some of that.

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